See that Twilight Sparkle? Shes so cute... She's also really picky. She only reads the best books!
If you write fanfiction, and sent it to EQD for posting, you have probably dealt with the pre-readers before. With a team of roughly 30 volunteers from pretty much every genre background, it's a robust selection process to say the least.
EQD isn't strictly a fanfiction website. The fandom has had repositories for stuff like that since it began. Over time, as more is created, the requirements steadily increase. Sure, a few do slip through that are less than amazing, but we are only human.
In order to smooth this process over a bit for stories we turn down, the pre-readers have created a full guide, covering all of the primary points they seek out when reviewing a fanfic. It includes tips and tricks on fixing, as well as topics to avoid altogether. With the recent influx from fimfiction, we are pretty buried!
So, authors of the fandom, I beg of you: before you submit something to EQD, please consult the document below. The Pre-readers' primary goal is improving the quality of stories for everyone in the fandom, as well as helping you grow as an author. The Omnibus has been painstakingly modified for the past 4 months, focusing on making it extremely simple to follow and reference on the fly. It covers almost every writing topic. With 60 stories in review right now, 50 of which will probably be sent off for editing, we need your help as writers to make the system speedy for all!
The Pre-reader OmnibusNow go! And Make your fanfiction SHINE ACROSS EQUESTRIA!
And for the love of Twilight Sparkle, please give the same attention to your story updates. They may not be pre-read, but you owe it to your readers!
Note: As with everything on EQD, Feedback is more than welcome. Improving the omnibus further will only improve everyone else further!
404 comments:
I guess I don't see what all the sturm und drang is about. EqD makes no bones about being an edited fanfiction archive and their requirements are pretty lenient. I got my first submission punted, so I've been pursuing it on the Training Grounds thread on /fic/. I'll resubmit when I'm satisfied, and it'll get accepted or it won't. Try getting a magazine to accept an article or story; I had to try many, many times over several years to get anything published. This? This is nothing.
ReplyDelete@Daffodil
ReplyDeletePony time is best time. :D
@Daffodil
ReplyDeletePony time is best time. :D
@Unknown
ReplyDeleteIt's not the requirements at all. If you really wanna know, it's all there. I don't feel like restating it.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteOops. Computer derp. =_=
An overall excellent guide. The only thing I disagree with is disapproval of dialogue like "Hi!" the pink pony grinned.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with using words like "grinned" in place of "said." It's a common and acceptable practice.
To new writers or less than expert writers, I would like to add . . . if you can't write a perfect story with perfect grammar, write the story you can write right now and then figure out how to improve it.
While getting a story on EQD is nice, the ultimate goal is to grow as a writer. As with anything, practice makes perfect. It's better to start out crappy and gradually improve than to never write at all.
@Some1Else
ReplyDeletebad OC's, changing equestria FOREVARRRRR, insta-ship, OOC and if the writer sounds like a first-grader come to mind...
@RK_Striker_JK_5
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you don't know what a Sue is. Go google it and read the original Mary Sue fanfic.
@Unknown
ReplyDeleteWhile getting a story on EQD is nice, the ultimate goal is to grow as a writer. As with anything, practice makes perfect. It's better to start out crappy and gradually improve than to never write at all.
Hear, hear. While we love that EQD is the 'goal' of many a writer, it's important to realize that the 'goal' of any writer should be the writing itself, first.
Also, please note that EQD has certain restrictions in the content it will accept. This is not a moral judgement on your work or yourself, but an attempt by the blogponies to keep the entire assembly family-friendly (disregarding such touchstones as 'Cupcakes', which is here simply for the impact it's had on the fandom).
@WildFire15
ReplyDeleteThere are 7 words that tend to be a death-knell to most stories, and that is "it was a dark and stormy night".
google it.
@banjo2E
ReplyDeleteWHER TO PLOG TEEVEE INTO TYPEWRITER? I HAVE BLAK SCRIN HALP.
My dear sir, if you are building a computer and don't know what a graphics card is, turn back now.
More Human in Equestria Fics please!
ReplyDelete@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteYou, er, DO realize that Silent Ponyville went through the pre-readers, yes?
Do be a good fellow and run along and play now :)
@Carcer
ReplyDeleteWe have a word for that, LUS or Lavender Unicorn Syndrome.
The omnibus is attempting to teach by hyperbole.
@Kyronea
ReplyDeleteRather than them being a 'stain', they are generally just not very good, and also often cross the self-imposed generally-family-friendly boundaries for submissions to EqD.
Cupcakes only got posted because enough blowhards just wouldn't STFU about it and sethisto and the rest were entirely sick of it stinking up their inbox.
Since then, there have been a number of attempts to write something cupcakes-esque and I think they have all failed on literary merit first. One has been touted as "excellent" when I personally think it is utter drek, not because it is grimdark but because it is utter drek.
@Drakon
ReplyDeletethese are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. we state them because we see a lot of fanfics and we know what often accompanies them. multi-hued ponies exist, but are not entirely common. A bad writer will have a multi-hued pony who starts to exhibit extraordinary powers as well as a stellar personality, and then it's revealed close personal history with the mane 6, a tragic backstory...
get the picture?
@Sordid Euphemism
ReplyDeleteEditorial voice. EqD has very limited restrictions but they have some editorial standards, as is their right (and, really, responsibility as a prominent media random outlet).
@Something To Quack About
ReplyDeleteWow. A lot of entitlement, opinion-as-fact, snobbery, and absolutes in that comment, too - none of which are true.
Take a gander how many stories with those tags are posted.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteoh, yes, the pre-readers should just "give it up" and EqD should post anything and everything that is sent its way.
I have seen the light.
Yeah, no.
The pre-readers aren't perfect, we repeatedly say that, sometimes we get things wrong - there's a ponychan thread for questions and answers, hit some of us up there - but these are volunteers trying their best to make sure that the hundreds of millions of views are going to have a good time with the fanfiction we post.
Excuse me if I don't feel your entitlement.
@sabersword
ReplyDeleteif this hasn't been said already, you should have poked sethisto about three weeks ago... resend.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteWrite what you want, really. Draw what you want, enjoy what you want, as long as it hurts nobody else. The thing is, it doesn't have to be posted here, and it doesn't even have to be looked at.
I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.
"cupcakes related" is the wrong word to use - we're talking about imitating a style and a subject, not referencing it. Referencing it is a red flag, but is not a death sentence.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteif it made it to the pre-readers, we do not just reject fics. If we did, there's probably been a mistake.
find the pre-readers' thread on ponychan and let me know the name of the story in question and I'll go search for it.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteyou've probably been told this already, but no, there is no reason why EqD has to post anything by anybody, pre-readers or not. I'm not sure where that idea comes from, but no.
I'm not a prereader, but seriously people. Why are you complaining when someone is trying to help you? They aren't even that mean about it. I'll admit, I didn't take my first rejections well, but after looking at them openly and objectively, they did point out serious flaws in my stories.
ReplyDeleteAbout the whole Cupcakes parody MSTing thing... wouldn't this whole thing be resolved by asking the original author for permission to post it? If that's the issue, then that should fix it. If he doesn't answer then, well, another venue to publish the work should be explored.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, MSTings of your work suck sometimes. And they hurt. I've had it done by real a-holes. Anypony here ever hear of Elmer Studios? Now *they* were cruel. I almost miss them. (I think I already told you once about this NAGU, sorry for being repetitive)
But, eventually I got over it. They never asked me if they could publish them and they did. And it sucked. When somepony did ask, eventually, I didn't say no. Who knows, the author of Cupcakes might find it amusing but, if he doesn't want it posted on EqD, then don't insist. EqD is not the only place to publish things after all if you really feel like doing so, so don't stress!
It sucks when your work is denied, and yes I agree that it also sucks that most Pre-readers hate Grimdark... and maybe they should get some who don't, but well, everypony here is doing things for love of pony and we have to respect that.
As much as we put an effort into words and we deserve a polite "no, because" or "yes, this is sooo awesome!" we also need to return the gesture and appreciate that pre-readers have lives too and they are donating their time.
Sometimes we will get some that want to concentrate on grammar over content.
Sometimes we get others that want more originality (they do get all sorts of stories so that can be understood, if it's not necessarily cool to be told your work is too derivative even for fanfiction) but if they do provide a bit of insight into "why not" besides that... well, they are doing their job.
As far as they can provide a line with that tidbit of information I'm cool with it. (Although if punctuation is the *only* problem you guys might want to let the author know that the work is otherwise okay!)
Anyway... brain tired... I might have been rambling about nonsense... zzz
To all those feeling discouraged by the writing process I would encourage you to read the following article http://www.hauntedcomputer.com/scottst3.htm .
ReplyDeleteWhen you write or create any kind of art one of the hardest things to do is putting it out where others can see it. This is especially true if you are relatively young in your career. But it is essential that you do so. Art is defined by its ability to inspire emotion in others. To do that it must be placed in front of others.
This act of sharing can lead to rejection. This may happen for any number of reasons. Maybe the story was poorly formed. Perhaps its quality was lacking. Or it could be that it simply wasn't something that the editor felt would be a good fit for the venue you were submitting it to.
Make no mistake, the editor is not your enemy. He or she is simply a gate keeper set there to ensure a certain standard of work. You may not agree with that standard, and that is your perogative. But you still have respect that standard if you wish to have your work considered.
Notice that I said respect, not slavishly follow. Remember that every rule has its exception. We use the rules, and we abuse the rules, but we can hardly afford to loose the rules.
Just keep in mind that pushing through discouragement is what separates a writer from a non writer. And being able to take useful criticism and ignoring the rest is what separates a ok writer from great writer.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteYes. He does realize that. That was kinda the joke.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteYou haven't looked that hard yet, lol.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteReferencing it as an in-universe event even if the style is completely different is indeed a death sentence here, lol. That's what I mean.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteOh, you did. You guys even read it without ever telling me you did through the proper channels. There was no mistake. I had to go to Phoe to get an explanation. But it doesn't matter now, that was months ago, and the fic in question was a trollfic that I submitted sometime after Spiderses got posted.
I understand fully why it didn't merit a post and I'm fine with that, but there's a problem when I just get rejected out of hand with no explanation from the people who should have given me one, even if it's just a "we don't want that kind of fic here".
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteYou're seriously missing his point. Also, you should finish reading the thread before replying to everyone.
@Kurbz
ReplyDeleteThe people who are complaining are complaining because they WEREN'T given help, and in some cases were rejected quite rudely without an explanation.
@Wanderer D
ReplyDeleteThe problem was the it was rejected quite rudely with no explanation. This whole "author's permission" was never brought up until today, long after the incident itself.
Other than that though, good post. Those of us who are complaining are complaining because we have at one point or another been denied a polite "yes" or "no", not been offered any suggestions to go with a refusal, and/or not given any explanation at all.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteYou are missing what he's saying entirely, I'm sorry. He's not complaining about the selection process so much as the feedback process, which has failed him, and he has seen it fail on other occasions.
His other point was however that some genres of stories suffer from a bias due to most pre-readers being predisposed to not liking said genres of stories due to personal taste. This is a problem that could and should be looked at.
We know you say you're not perfect, but we've never seen anything done about it. And a large problem is how you interact with authors even outside of the editing process. Such as right now. At least one of your fellow pre-readers conceded to this point. Which is good, that means he was taking a look at how he behaves as a pre-reader, and that's all we ask.
And again, we respect that you are volunteers, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to improve.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteIn the comment I was replying to, when I stated that EqD doesn't have to post everything, he was in fact demanding that "EqD should post everything 'good'" (meaning well-written).
To that particular comment, thread or not, the answer is "no, really, we don't".
Honestly though, if you just got a base rejection, chances are it never officially made it to the pre-readers, and/or (if it was a trollfic) the response *should* have been "lol, no". Spiderses was something we just knew would be copied, badly, same as "the cough" (which, for flash fiction, is good, but that's all it is) and it may just have been a particularly eye-rolling trollfic not bad enough to warrant an "R U SRS?" yet nowhere near good enough to be actual fiction.
I can try to track it down, I dimly remember it, perhaps. Hop over to ponychan if you're still cut up about it and find the pre-reader's thread.
Even for those working outside Pony fiction this is pretty useful, particularly those just starting out. Me personally, I used to draw comics before real life got in the way so I made the switch to pure prose. Dialogue's fairly solid, but not having pictures to do everything else is prooving a challenge.
ReplyDeleteIs some of it common sense? Yeah. Should some of it be taken with a grain of salt? Probably (but hey: shouldn't everything in the end?). Does it lay out a pretty solid set of guidelines? Absolutely.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go take a good hard look at my semi-colon useage.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteHmm, well, that's not what your comment made it sound like he said and I honestly couldn't be bothered to find the exact post. Still though, that was all discussed to death further done in the thread.
I do know it made it to the pre-readers, and heck, at least one of you even liked it. I never heard any of that without doing some serious digging though, and it took me asking Phoe to get my explanation. Frankly, I was not impressed with how I was treated, and that's my issue.
Anywho, I don't really care any more, and I haven't even finished it yet because a more series project took priority. However, I wouldn't mind if you took a look at it, and in fact would enjoy feedback, even criticism. Just keep in mind that I broke a number of storytelling rules on purpose i.e if you criticize it don't make that your focus. I didn't break writing conventions like Spiderses though.
Here's the link.
Although I wholeheartedly agree with the Omnibus and its purpose, I'll restate what was said earlier: It feels like a common-sense guide. Although it is necessary and shouldn't be ignored, most of what is said in it is already known by most authors. Also, as I'm sure you're aware, self-editing is much harder than it looks, especially if you're a new author. Easier said than done, if you will.
ReplyDeleteI also want to point out that quality won't skyrocket just because you ask it to. Terrible fics will be sent in time and again. Since the fanbase is growing, the amount of rubbish you have to sift through will only increase, and although this may help a little bit, most authors that actually care enough to read it will already have most of their problems fixed. I can't say I know best, but I think you may just need more manpower. By invitation, of course. Authors of six-star fics should be considered, at least. At any rate, I could care less how you ramp up efficiency as long as it increases soon.
The only real problem I have with the Omnibus is that it has an overly sarcastic tone. When I read it, I honestly feel like crap afterward. It feels, to me, that you're trying to discourage awful writers. If Fluttershy was a writer, how would she feel after reading the Omnibus? She may never want to write again. The biggest change you could make is at least be indifferent--not a hugbox, but not a Debbie Downer, either.
At any rate, this is far better than nothing at all, it's just not the only step that needs to be taken.
I'm currently writing a Mass Effect cross over with OC Mass Effect characters and OC ponies. The thing I'm worried about is I have absolutely no mention of ponies until the 3rd or 4th chapter.
ReplyDeleteI've spent those chapters developing my Mass Effect characters and creating a believable introduction to the pony-side of the story. I'm worried that people will lose interest in the story completely or just dismiss it early on.
Ok. Let me state the the MST3K rejection note thing sucks.
ReplyDeleteThe fic was mooned for being terrible, not for parody reasons. I have no idea where/when that entered into it. The writing itself was more than sufficient to send the thing into orbit.
What got sent to Seth was something along the lines of:
He didn't fix any of the characterization problems. They've gotten worse because he just reattributed the lines to other ponies at random. Oh, he added a gore scene. I'm done with this fic forever.
From the only prereader who was willing to read it the second time through. First time through it got three reviews.
While the superficial aspects were fixed (font size, some of the formatting) the issues of completely and total OoC on the part of everypony were only made WORSE the second time through. The addition of his own gore scene in the middle sealed the deal. The fic is unsalvageable.
@Wanderer D
As for Grimdark. The reason it's hated is because it's fucking stupid. Try watching the show sometime. There are maybe 4 or 5 Grimdark fics that have more than a passing relationship with the show. Any 12 year old with a word processor can shit out a grimdark fic. Doing it while retaining the characters from the show takes a talent 99% of the people who attempt it lack. We have pre-readers who read grimdark. They slowly get turned off of it because of how BAD most of it is.
@mindblower
If the omnibus hurts your feelings, never publish anything that isn't divine inspiration. Seriously, this is the internet. Grow a thicker skin or don't place yourself in front of the crowd.
@P.Slater
Yeah. That's going to be an issue. You are entirely correct that us and most of the readers won't bother opening chapter 3. I'd advise you to restructure you story to introduce parts of the pony setting earlier.
@Wanderer D:
ReplyDeleteFor the record, we always get forwarded author responses, and every time we get a good one, it makes the job that much more worthwhile. Responses written with humility, joviality, or just outright kind words help erase all the negativity that comes our way. We love nice authors, seriously.
Sometimes we will get some that want to concentrate on grammar over content.
Just for the record, we shouldn't have to concentrate on grammar over content. We don't want to. When something is submitted to EQD, we expect it to be the very best it can be. Polish your work, authors; make sure it's been edited and proofread. Mechanics is the first thing we look at, and if it's not up to snuff, it's getting sent back. Sometimes this means reading chapter 1 and going, "This has serious problems, here they are." And then it comes back and we read chapter 2 and have to say, "The writing is cleaned up, but now there are structural/characterization/content issues." It's backwards, but it's the way things have to work. If you're not putting your best foot forward, you're not going up on the blog.
@Mindblower:
The sarcasm comes from months of reading terrible fanfic. We blow off steam maybe a little too much. That said, we're trying to discourage awful writing, not awful writers. Indeed, there's no such thing as an awful writer, there are only those who aren't willing to put in the work necessary to improve their writing. Anyone can write well, some people just need to work harder at it than others.
I'd like to propose an amendment to the Mary Sue portion of this guide.
ReplyDeleteIt is not these kinds of traits that make a Sue a Sue. It's the way the character is written. A really competent writer can create a really great character with any or all of these traits. The reason these traits are often associated with bad characters is because they're so often used by bad WRITERS to try and make their character interesting. Because of these writers using the traits in such a way, other writers are unfairly criticized for making characters which use them.
The way I see it, a true Mary Sue is a character who is able to get through the story with little to no problem, regardless of the traits she has. She never has any character development and is just handed popularity and romance without ever earning it. Any one of the traits listed in the guide would, at this point, just be the cherry on top.
@Present Perfect Oh, I don't mean that a writer shouldn't do his/her best and ignore grammar, I apologize if I wasn't clear, my point was, that regardless of the response (good or bad) it's always better to add a good word of encouragement.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I've never had a problem with a pre-reader here. I've gotten recommendations on fixing a couple of things, and I've fixed them.
I wasn't implying that you never do give good responses.
@Kits As I said, the "Grimdark" tag is misused and insufficient to express what a fic is about.
As for your remarks about a 12 year old, saying that it's 'fucking stupid' is, pardon my language, f***g stupid. The same kid could attempt crude "Comedy" and fail miserably. There are plenty of "Shipping" fics out there that are pathetic in their execution and the characters are not even remotely acting in character from the get go and we don't hear whining about it. So, some ponies write crappy fanfics. They are Fan Fics. Not "Pro Fics" you will get bad ones and good ones and having an attitude that is condescending just because of the genre is not going to help.
Also, I didn't use explicit language in my previous post out of respect for all readers here so, have the courtesy of responding in kind. If you are a pre-reader here as you seem to indicate in your response and you want to claim a professional attitude then show it.
I will remind you that my post above included the word "Respect" for both writers and pre-readers.
@Kits
ReplyDeleteHmmm.
Apparently you pre-readers don't see the problem with being jaded- you fail to recognize intentional parody of bad fanfiction.
e_e
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeletei've sent him a few emails already. and i've informed him that it's been a month. i still get total radio silence.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteWe do recognize parody alright. Your fic was just bad parody. To the point where, without a total ground-up overhaul and rewrite, it will never be posted. There is a reason no one wanted to read it again.
@Wanderer D
Yes, I'm a prereader. I'm quite pissed off at some of my colleges who are making it seem as though we have something to apologize for. As I said, it sucks that Seth sent what he did, but there is only so much that you can say about a fic that the author lacks the skills to write. Between NAGU and ACE acting like they should be published, and people (you) bitching about us not giving grimdark it's fair shake, I got very, very mad.
Yes. There are TONS of bad comedies and ship fics. Scads of them. We bitch about those too. We often have to some up with a nice way of saying "this fic isn't funny".
There is far more bad grimdark than bad comedy and shipping combined. Most of these 'writers' seem to be trying to be 'edgy' or 'push boundaries' or some other version of trying to be 'deep'. My theory is they've been listening to way too much Linkin Park.
The biggest problem with the entire genre of grimdark as applied to ponies, is that the characters, setting, and world are at complete odds with it. Comedy? There is plenty of funny moments to be had with Equestria and ponies. Shipping? Far closer to the canon theme of friendship than disembowelment and betrayal. Grimdark? Lol what show are you watching? Pinkie Pie or Twilight Sparkle randomly murdering ponies? New Lunar Republic? Pony cannibalism? Not even the concept of most grimdark fics fit the characters, setting, or themes from the show.
When fans of the genre laud such utter idiocy as Cupcakes and such blatantly terrible characterization as Rainbow Factory as the height of the fandom, all I can say if they wouldn't know friendship if it baked them a chocolate cake.
tl;dr 99%+ of grimdark is OoC, not set in a world remotely like Equestria, and doesn't feel like My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic in any way shape or form. At least the bad comedy and ship fics tend to have one of those right.
One suggestion, and its short. Have your pre-readers attack the story not for it's saleability or on subjective issues. but on OBJECTIVE issues like grammar, spelling and the like. When you come back with a rejection letter that is 80% subjective and based on pre-reader bias..it's kinda harsh.
ReplyDelete@Kits Which is why I think the Grimdark or tags in general should be clarified.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at it from the characters perspective, NMM & Discord were pretty much destroying their world. Sure, there's no violence and death, but the sense of their world ending is real enough that if you delve into it it could be called "Grimdark" in the loosest sense of the term... which is why advocate a selection of Tags be included in the doc above.
I guess what I am saying is that a starting author might not have the good sense to send Seth alternative tags would send a slightly dark/tragic/drama story (i.e. Storm) as "Grimdark" and my fear is that it might get caught in the bias and find disdain instead of a fair chance.
Yes, we have a lot of really weird stories popping out for such an otherwise happy universe, and I am not a fan of gore or random murder either, but what gets me is the lashing at the genre itself rather at the specific types that clash consistently with the MLP theme or are particularly offensive.
But I guess we're going in circles. For the record, I do respect the work all of you are doing, and whenever I send something and I get a reply with "fix this" I always reply to Seth with a thank you for the pre-reader who was kind enough to review my story.
@Kits
ReplyDeleteI'm not acting like my thing should have been published, I'm saying I was treated poorly. So was NAGU. Your behavior is just proving our point.
@Kits I'm flattered that you're concerned about my feelings, but I assure you that it will take more than a tap on the shoulder to throw me out of the game. I'm aware that writing is a business and that those who can't take harsh criticism won't usually have the best prose, either. However, I'm going to respectfully disagree on how to approach newer writers, as I prefer a slightly more supportive attitude when I'm editing at all. However, I hardly know best, after all.
ReplyDelete@Present Perfect True, true. I'm aware that everybody needs to blow off steam every once in a while. I'm just worried that if you blow off steam in comments and in the Omnibus, you will paint the prereaders in a negative light that I know isn't justified. However, I'm personally glad that you're lending your time to make an Omnibus at all. What other fanbase has anything like that?
The only thing I'm really pushing for is a larger staff to suit the need for prereading. I'll restate that I can't know best and don't know best, but as I've said earlier, asking for quality to improve isn't the only step that needs to be taken. But, as always, I could care less about exactly how you increase efficiency as long as it improves.
@Kits
ReplyDeleteI never said it should have been published.
Frankly, if you had said that either a) the changes didn't improve it and it needed to be taken back to the drawing board / reconsidered entirely or b) you disapprove of the self-parodying satire genre / riff format and do not wish to include fictions of that kind and that it belongs elsewhere.
Either of those would have been perfectly acceptable responses.
Instead, you chose the Rage Quit/1-Star Downvote method and simply dismissed it outright without providing non-subjective cause.
Which comes across as a direct "fuck you and fuck your writing" when it comes back.
I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate receiving that kind of feedback, considering how well you're taking your reviewing skills being criticized...
@Kits
ReplyDeleteI'm going to disagree with you mister, in that last sentence.
Yes there are horrible fanfiction out there under the label of grimdark, with all sorts of bad characterization and all the bad stuff you would like to complain about.
But exactly how out of character is an interpretation of the show? A good fic does not necesarily needs to stick WORD BY WORD to what the show depicts on the screen, and that is the beauty in fanfiction, it's a different approach to what the show tells us.
Take for example shipping, what you say sticks more to the show. Without going all the way to a clopfic, how exactly does a homosexual relationship (the 90% of all the shipping fics) sticks to what the show depicts on the screen?
On the matter of gore, yes it's pretty lame if pulled wrong. But with the correct story, writing and situation it can top the better stories out there, and not labeled as 'thrown into the trash can' as it is stated in the FAQ. Just becase the prereaders DISLIKE OR HATE grimdark, we should deprive the community of enjoying a goood piece of dark literature, think of it.
Not set in Equestria? Do we know exactly everything that happens in Equestria? We only get 22 minutes of it every once in a while, and you're really making it sound like writing a grimdark story is something like a crime for not "sticking" to the show, "or not feeling like My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic".
I respect your point and agree to it in some degree, but don't outline grimdark 'bad' just by default.
@Wanderer D
Seconded word by word
@Kits
ReplyDeleteOh, and you REALLY think that 99% of Grimdark is OOC?
Kindly consult the fiction archive and click the Grimdark and Star-5 tags for a list of reasons why you are a terrible pre-reader if you honestly and truly believe that.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteYou do need to know what a graphics card is to build a computer, but not what it's made of. Similarly, you need to know how to structure your stories in order to write, but don't need to be able to name the components of a good structure or list the top 5 most common structure formats.
I can't believe this is happening. I know this is the internet, and flamers and trolls always pop up, but this many? for a guide that is nothing but politely worded reason and common sense?
ReplyDeleteWHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU??!?!?!?!
The Omnibus is :
A: well within their rights to publish.
B: a well written guide to beginning writers.
Now one might make arguments that the rules and principles are carried out. That's an okay point, except they themselves in the post claim that they're human too, and sometimes thing's slip through.
Maybe some of you in the past got a rejection email that was a little harsh. Yes I understand how badly that would suck, I submitted a fic recently and it's slowly driving me nuts waiting to here back from the pre-readers. However, just because Seth or some one didn't get their morning coffee isn't a reason for this many complaints. I manely think that you guys who say you got chewed out are annoyed at rejection. But then again what do I know. Maybe tomorrow I'll be out here complaining too.
@Kranbe
ReplyDeleteIt's not about the guide itself, but a few people (myself included) found this an acceptable place to voice some of our concerns about the pre-readers. From what I've seen of their behavior, I am unimpressed. Their rejection does not concern me, but how they act does.
For those arguing that Equestria Daily is insufficiently receptive to GrimDark stories... have you considered that this could just be the wrong forum for your work?
ReplyDeleteSomeone could send a great science fiction story to a wildlife magazine. It probably won't get published regardless of its quality.
I think it's clear that having ponies be reasonably in-character with the show, is critical for this site. ED naturally attracts readers who enjoy this, and who would be disappointed if this changed.
If your story is too dark to mesh with ED's intended audience, try posting to a site that does respect and enjoy such stories. Isn't having your story be appreciated the real goal?
@WhitFox The problem here, for me, is not having my stories published. They are published.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am arguing is that the general attitude is to regard Grimdark as something not worthwhile just because the tag is there and not on the story merits and it's just being propagated by the dismissive stand on it from the pre-readers.
My argument is that there aren't sufficient tags for the work to be expressed correctly in many cases, and it would benefit new writers to have the tags explained more thoroughly than they are in the traditional guidelines.
And, no, EqD IS the right place to send a good story, be it grimdark or comedy. If this is not the intended audience then explain FoE.
Whether they accept a story or not *is* up to them, but it gets old to see posts where it is remarked how the *Pre-Readers* (not the readers/visitors) hate Grimdark.
If you don't like Grimdark don't read it, but don't bash a story just because of the genre if you haven't even bothered to take a look.
@Wanderer D
ReplyDeleteI'm not arguing that GrimDark is bad, or that it's not right for ED. I'm arguing that some stories are too dark for ED, like the serious development on Cupcakes mentioned upthread.
This gets more GrimDark read than otherwise would. When I first came here, I loathed the whole idea. I got into ponies because they're BlueSky, so much so they remind me of divine grace. But I trusted a story synopsis and the pre-readers, and started into "Ponies Make War". No spoilers, but I got to enjoy the ponies on a different level. And now I'm willing to give more stories a chance - even FoE.
Had I instead run into Cupcakes without warning, I might have quit reading fanfiction altogether. Whether these stories are good or not, they're antithetical to my enjoyment of MLP.
ED's standards and pre-readers perform a great service for bronies in tune with the site. Not that there's anything wrong with not being in tune. But that does suggest you should be looking to other pony sites as well.
Erm... I'm going to avoid the ugliness above and just make a suggestion for the last section of the guide.
ReplyDeleteThe Purdue OWL is an excellent guide that I refer to any time I am writing. It's tone is more for academic writing, but its sections on SPaG are spot-on.
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ReplyDelete@WhitFox I think we are both talking about the same thing and yet not...
ReplyDeleteOkay, I think that what you are saying is that EqD is not the place for Gore and such, let's call them, 'extreme' stories. If this is the case, I agree. I don't write gore, and I don't particularly enjoy it either. I don't think most of us here do.
What I am trying to say is that Grimdark should *not* be immediately associated with Gore. Or automatically dismissed as sub-standard because of the admittedly large portion of the writers who cannot, well, write it in the first place.
I also think that new writers would benefit from having a wider set of tags to express what their story is about more specifically, so that you could enjoy a story such as 'Ponies Make War' without worrying it's going to go there.
If EqD is not accepting Gore and such, then it should be clearly stated "No Gore/Cannibalism/Etc." in the guidelines (which it isn't). That would save all of us a lot of trouble, the pre-readers a lot of time and stress and wondering who needs to read the next Grimdark.
If there was an explanation and a limit to what Grimdark means that is distanced from those aspects, and a clear note on what will NOT be accepted, then arguably, they should receive a lot less stories where it is present.
@Wanderer
ReplyDeleteExcellent point on defining gore/grimdark better. Fallout: Equestria and Project Horizons both feature gore, cannibalism, and violence, but are two of the most popular stories on here. I think one way to help define this would be to say "gore and violence and cannibalism for its own sake -- that is, something that does not add depth to the story -- are rejected right out". That, to me at least, seems to be the case.
@Mint Julep A much better clarification of my point, thank you!
ReplyDeleteThis actually really helps. I'll add some of these things into my fic when writing my final draft.
ReplyDelete@Wanderer D:
ReplyDeleteShould grimdark be immediately associated with gore? Of course not. But it is, because most grimdark stories -- and I'm talking the bad ones, that will never see light of day on the blog -- are in fact "gore and violence and cannibalism for its own sake" as Mint Julep put it. To someone strongly against anything bad happening to ponies, all grimdark may as well be gorn, for all that it entails. The better fics don't deserve that sort of stigma, but there you go: grimdark is something that inexperienced writers tend to flock towards, and it brings out the worst in them.
There are two, maybe three pre-readers who absolutely detest grimdark in all forms and will delete it on sight without reading it. There is also at least one pre-reader who feels the same about shipping. It's true that shipping fics are horrible and cliched just as often as grimdark fics are, so why does grimdark get a harder time? More vocal opponents. Although if you ask me, there are anti-shipping trolls star-bombing fics based on tags lately. Find me a way to stop that, it's pissing me off.
@Wanderer D
ReplyDeleteI think you're misunderstanding the standard being enjoyed. It's not about gore. It's about properly characterizing the ponies and their world, as the guides describe.
"Ponies Make War" has plenty of gore. The last episode I read literally rubbed it in one of the Mane 6's face. And that's not even close to the worst thing that happens. The story is inarguably GrimDark as ED defines it. And I'm still in love with it because it plays fair with the pony world, and I see my favorite ponies being true to themselves despite the stress.
The episode Magnificent Mare-Do-Well merely distressed Rainbow Dash for about 10 minutes of screentime. I hate it, particularly for making Fluttershy rub salt in the wounds. It's just beneath the ponies I've come to love.
So from my perspective, GrimDark authors are being given the right information in the guides. But perhaps it's not clear enough that the characterization guidance still applies to GrimDark.
@Wanderer D
ReplyDeleteI'm curious what you wrote that Elmer Studios went after. I've read all their stuff, and have yet to find anything in there that wasn't richly deserving of a good sporking.
The reasoning behind several of the pre-readers hating grimdark isn't exactly a secret. It's just a matter of the sheer quantity of badly written grimdark that they are exposed to.
@Present Perfect
ReplyDeleteI agree with this on all points.
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ReplyDelete@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteOkay, that was just uncalled for. Please tell me you're not a pre-reader.
e_e
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteNope. I don't have the patience to sugarcoat my opinion of fics to protect the egos of writers who should know better.
I can only admire the heck out of the people who have the patience to volunteer their time, for no reward at all other than being whined at by people who aren't skilled enough yet to objectively judge their own work. If I had to wade through half the stuff they do, I'd have left the fandom by now in self defense.
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to be a total douchebag, either. I don't even read The Empty Room, I just can't stand seeing people act like that. It doesn't matter whether or or not it is any good. That doesn't give you the right to treat people like that.
I think this conversation has gone far afield, and I'd like to make a request:
ReplyDeleteIf you have a problem with how the pre-readers operate or how the blog is run, please email the blogponies (Sethisto, Cereal & Phoe) at their listed contact email addresses.
If you have a request for the Omnibus - an actual request, with an original excerpt + changes, or a request to include new information, please email me at sordideuphemism at gmail dot com.
I further request that if you do not have a comment on the omnibus itself that you refrain from further serving Krastos in his quest to turn all ponies, living and dead, into glue.
Of course, you're free to ignore any of these suggestions.
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ReplyDelete@Wanderer D
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I LIKE The Empty room and eagerly await the next chapter!
Thank you so much! I came here looking for sweet art, but this is waaaaaaay better. I currently have a fic in the works, and am waiting for a friend to finish the cover art for it. I'm 8 chapters in, but am not above some helpful criticism. Just look for the pen name Portal Jumper (if it gets posted, that is.) /)^3^(\ wy wub woo!
ReplyDelete@Whiteout
ReplyDelete@Wanderer D
I think you both need to calm down. You're embarrassing yourselves.
@CanterEdlund you are absolutely right.
ReplyDeleteWell, I can confidently say I will never submit anything here again as long as these guidelines are in effect.
ReplyDelete@CanterEdlund
ReplyDeleteYeah, after a little much needed sleep, I did come off a lot more agressive than I thought. Sorry, Wanderer D, not trying to attack you personally.
That said, your fic is an excellent example if what I dislike about a great majority of grimdark. It's central plot only works thanks to several seriously broken characterizations among the cast and a completely derailed setting.
Taken as an alternate universe fic, it might be passable, but it definitely has little besides names in common with Friendship Is Magic.
@Mint Julep
ReplyDeleteExcellent suggestion! I went ahead and added the OWL to the "Additional Writing Guides" section per your recommendation.
I also went ahead and put up a link to the text of Strunk and White's The Elements of Style. It's one of my most favorite style guides for writing, ever.
I'll admit, reading the Omnibus makes me feel extremely lucky that my own story made it though! Celestia knows, I play fast and loose with a lot of those rules.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hoof, absolutely yes, every writer should want to make her or his story the best it can be. After the first few chapters, I was able to get myself a team of two editors and several more proofreaders, and my story was immeasurably better for it. Trust me, you want all the helpful feedback you can get.
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ReplyDelete@Kits
ReplyDeleteIf I ever decide to submit another story to Equestria Daily, is there any way to request that you not be one of my pre-readers?
@Kkat
ReplyDeleteWow, thanks! I appreciate that from such a respected author. I wholeheartedly agree that you need a good team of editors to polish your story--I have six. However, if I may, I think one of the reasons your story made it through was because some of the flaws that prereaders turn stories down for today weren't recognized when you submitted. Of course, I haven't read your story (I'm assuming it's fantastic because of all the feedback), but that may be a playing factor. As the number of Fanfictions rises, the bar must be raised to prevent Equestria Daily from becoming FimFiction. I will admit I'm slightly envious of fics such as Past Sins and Antipodes which jumped on the bus early. Their stories are fantastic, but I can't help but wonder if they had only been written yesterday and then submitted. I doubt they would be as popular as they are today. However, I think your story has to be among the best for you to get all of this art and publicity; that's impossible to deny.
And don't bash Kits! I've gotten some one-on-one time with that prereader to help me edit my story. The reason Kits is getting a little annoyed is because some of the authors are taking the prereaders for granted, which is entirely incorrect. However, I do agree with the above and that they should try to improve. I also agree, though, that writing Grimdark is bad for business, if you will.
@Present Perfect
ReplyDeleteFor the most part, I agree with the goal of the Omnibus and I think it gives a lot of good guidelines. However, honestly, Mindblower has a point. If I had read that Omnibus before submitting my fanfic, I never would have even tried. My story would never have been written.
I can understand the need to blow off steam. But wow... that document is discouraging.
I have a 6-star rating with over 2000 reviewers and enough positive and uplifting comments that they had to create a whole new page for them... and that Omnibus just made me feel like my story was crap.
Is that really the appropriate tone for Equestria Daily, the highlight of the brony fan-fiction community, to take towards people who may be just getting up the courage to attempt writing a story? Shouldn't we be... I dunno... encouraging?
In other matters, I fully share your disgust at anti-tag trolls and their star-bombing. I hope there is a way to counteract or stop them. Such behavior is deplorable.
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ReplyDeleteOkay, last time. (My apologies to any subscribers. I really wish there was a way to edit posts instead of just deleting them entirely and rewriting.)
ReplyDelete@Mindblower
@Mindblower
Yes, I too have to wonder if the pre-readers today would have even allowed Fallout: Equestria.
And (assuming the story is as good as people say it is) maybe that's a problem?
I am guessing from your comment on Grimdark that Fallout: Equestria isn't the sort of story you'll choose to read. But if you ever do decide to read my story, I would be honored and would love to know what you think of it.
As for Kits...
...sigh...
Sorry, maybe I'm just seeing Kits on a really bad day, but I found the ugliness I read pouring out of that pre-reader very disturbing.
I'm sorry, but if I submit anything else here, I would like a way to avoid having Kits as a pre-reader. I put too much work and effort into my stories. I want them to at least have an honest shot, and to be judged by quality and potential. And after that, I don't believe Kits would be able to do so.
(Again, my apologies for the multiple re-writes. In the space of a couple days, I've encountered enough haters both within the community and directed towards it that I've grown a bit... fatigued.)
@kkat :
ReplyDeleteThis is why we have so many pre-readers. We tend to specialize. Don't worry, Kits won't be reading your grimdark submissions.
@Whiteout I'm cool, sorry I also blew steam at you.
ReplyDelete@Kkat I hear you, my first two chapters of TER are really not that good, it wasn't until I got editors that my story started to make a lot more sense!
@Present Perfect Dude, I wish, I also hate anti-tag trolls like that... I would imagine most of them just hate fanfiction in general, if there's a way to stop them I'm all for it...
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteThank you Whiteout, for calming down and apologizing. I apologize for pointing my ire at you.
@Mindblower
ReplyDeleteI have to ask; who was taking the pre-readers for granted? I certainly wasn't, and neither was NAGU.
@Sordid Euphemism
ReplyDeleteThanks.
(Granted, not sure if I'll try to submit another story. I need a rest... but I've got a few ideas that have begun bouncing around in my head. I should ask: even if I try my hoof at a lighthearted comedy or a shipping fic, could I still make the same request?)
Can I say that the one response email I have seen (not mine) was one of the most stupid things I have ever seen: it directly implicated that the fic was about to be put up and a week later it turned out it wasn't to be.
ReplyDeleteIt did, in it's defence, point out some genuine flaws as well as well as some things which were purely opinion.
While I haven't seen it in practice the fact anything can be turned down without being read it infantile and repugnant; no matter what the content.
Can I also say that whichever pre-reader it is that uses the Flesch-Kincaid reading level as a benchmark of any sort should be dealt with. Severely.
@Kkat
ReplyDeleteI have to second this question.
Oh and Kkat, while I may not have read FoE (yet), I highly respect you. Keep being awesome. :D
And as to the guide itself it seems mostly basic stuff, though I am sure that it will help somepony somewhere
ReplyDeleteReading these comments. Wow.
ReplyDeleteCongrats Kits, if anyone were reading these and happened to think that these people were being un-reasonable towards pre-readers you just alienated them by being so repulsive.
On another note, I want to thank all the pre-readers for their hard (and often thankless) work. Despite my few concerns, I know that Equestria Daily is immeasurably better off for having pre-readers and a degree of quality control. You are a large part of what makes this the best site for pony fan-fiction.
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas (or, if you prefer, Happy Holidays). I hope you all find joy and happiness this weekend and for the rest of the season.
Love and marshmellow ponies!
--Kkat
@Kkat
ReplyDeleteJust would like to echo this sentiment. Merry Christmas all! :D
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteI love you.
Not gonna lie, reading the comments of this was like a fan-fic of it's own.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if the genre was comedy, or just stupidity.
@Emty
ReplyDeleteMaybe both? XD
Best one I have ever read. Should be star 6
ReplyDelete@Kkat:
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's any way to prevent that, short of moving to a new site with better architecture. It's an idea that sounds great until you realize just how much stuff would have to be moved. D:
So you must be the author of the much-vaunted Fallout: Equestria. Congrats. :) I've not had an opportunity to read it, so I can't comment on it specifically, but in regards to the Omnibus itself, it's written not to those about to write ponyfic, but to those about to submit to Equestria Daily. There are, as we keep saying, other websites out there, with large readerbases, that are dedicated to displaying practically any and all fanfictions written. And for some people, that's perfectly fine; they don't need to worry about what's in the omnibus.
I think we can agree that writing is fun; certainly, when it comes to fanfiction, most people do not set out to change the literary landscape with their works, though some do regardless. They write for a love of the characters, the settings, the themes. As has been said before (maybe in this thread, I can't recall), one should always write first and foremost for oneself. The moment you start sharing your work with others, though, you have to be willing to open yourself to criticism, and you have to accept that there are standards which must be met. Writing is fun, yes, but it's also a lot of work; no one ever talks about that. The best writers are the best because they put in a lot of work to make sure that their finished product is the best it can possibly be. Thus, the omnibus steps in, to give less experienced writers steps they can take to improve their writing. It's a guide for "What sort of work do I need to put in to my writing so I can be like those guys?" to put it one way.
I personally encourage anyone and everyone to write what comes to their minds, and share it with friends if they feel so inclined. If we are discouraging anything, it's submission of fanfics that don't meet our requirements. And even then, I encourage everyone to submit after they've given it a go on their own. We're here to let you know what needs work, after all. It's a lengthy process, one fraught with long hours and frustrations. The Omnibus is the framework, the pre-readers are the timbers, and the glorious apex of this structure is the final product: a fanfic worthy of being posted on Equestria Daily, for all that's worth. :)
I want to see that trebuchet made out of coffee-tables. ^^
ReplyDeleteto those who responded to my comment: If EQD rejects my first fan fiction again, then i feel like i should just give up the fan fiction stuff, i am not a good writer, i just wanted to tell some people a story but they don't want other people to see my story i guess.
ReplyDeletelol. How do I send it to EQD? I'm new here...
ReplyDelete@Rainbow Dash
ReplyDeleteEmail it to Seth. All the info you need can be found on the submission page.
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ReplyDelete(Sigh. There really needs to be an edit function.)
ReplyDelete@Present Perfect
I understand exactly where you are coming from.
Writing a good fanfic is a lot of work. (I personally spent an average of about 40 hours a week working on mine, a significant fraction of that with proofreaders and editors.) The issue that I'm trying to address is that, regardless of the purpose or intention, the tone of the Omnibus is discouraging.
Reading the Omnibus made me feel like I hadn't put enough work into writing my story, and made me think Fallout: Equestria wouldn't have been accepted if submitted today.
That may not be the message you intend to be sending, but that is the message you are sending and it is the wrong message.
I am going to make an assumption: I probably put as much work into being a writer as you put into being a pre-reader, if not a lot more. I do not mean to sound boastful, but my story is high quality. And if your Omnibus makes writers like me never want to submit here again, you've got a problem.
Honestly, I don't expect any writer to put in the amount of work I did. What I did was insane. So if your demands have become so exacting and your tools for dismissal so lazy that Fallout: Equestria would never have made it onto the site, then you are doing Equestria Daily and all of the brony community a disservice.
You have made me feel unwanted here.
The above said, I don't want to just complain or point out problems. Fallout: Equestria is fully written and proofread -- the last part comes out on Christmas morning -- so I have some time on my hooves.
ReplyDeleteI offer my assistance. Why don't you let me help you with the Omnibus? I can go over it and suggest some edits and additions that will hopefully help the Omnibus be a little more friendly as well as instructional.
Mind you, the Omnibus isn't "nasty" or "horrible". A few tweaks here and there, maybe a few added comments, should be all it needs.
And I believe we should take extra care to clarify that a story won't be dismissed because it makes a few mistakes or doesn't fallow all these guidelines. Rather, a story will be sent back if it is dominated by its mistakes or egregious in how it doesn't follow the guidelines.
For example:
Remember, that proper grammar is the cornerstone of writing. Amateur writers use improper grammar because they don't know any better. Skilled writers, however, use improper grammar to purpose and effect. For instance, is an accepted rule that every sentence should have a subject and a verb. If a fan-fiction is riddled with improper and broken sentences that make it difficult to read and understand, it will be sent back. But Equestria Daily not going to reject a fan-fiction for not having a subject and a verb before every period; the pre-readers are sensitive to literary style and writing designed to evoke.
As least, I hope they are. If they aren't, of all the bad things that could happen, that would be the. Worst. Possible. Thing.
(See what I did there? With the periods? -.^)
@Alexstrazsa
Thank you. However, I feel that way because there is something wrong here. Instead of just being sorry, let's try to fix it.
^.^
In truth, while I would agree with "when you are ready to edit your manuscript, print it out and read it again" when it comes to wanting a more professional publication, that's a fairly large investment for something that's essentially copyright infringement. Not all of us are at college anymore to have access to unlimited printing resources.
ReplyDeleteAnother consideration is how to find outside editors. The first round is always self-editing, of course, but even stepping away from your work for a while, you might just need someone else willing to tell you, "Why does character X do this? Wouldn't it fly in the face of how they've been behaving up to this point? And how about these plot holes big enough to drive a car through?" etc.
The EqD prereaders are swamped at all times, or at least that's the impression I take away from all the above drama. Whatever constructive criticism they can offer is generally good, but it would be nice to know how to go about finding someone to give your work a more thoroughly critical look if you really want to help things shape up.
I mean, it seems like a thin line to walk. Constructive criticism can be taken as a personal attack with pretty much no effort at all, which leaves both editor and author discouraged, but it still does volumes more to help a work improve than dozens of people saying "I liked it." I just wouldn't know how to go about it if I were only going by the guide, though perhaps I just missed it in my read through.
Regarding outside editors, we often refer authors to PonyChan's /fic/ board (http://www.ponychan.net/chan/fic/) especially the one titled 'Training Grounds'. PonyChan has its own rules and guidelines, so make sure you read the Original Post for the Training Grounds and also the /fic/ 'Sticky' - the first post on the forum with the words 'PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING' in brilliant red.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the "that's a fairly large investment for something that's essentially copyright infringement" comment, that's a line of thought with which I disagree. If you feel the work is worth a reader's time, then your work is worth treating professionally. It is, after all, Kurt Vonnegut's First Rule: "Never waste a reader's time."
@Sordid Euphemism
ReplyDeleteExactly. If the writer doesn't care enough about his work to proof it to the best of his or her ability, why in the world should an editor, pre-reader, or the audience care about it?
All right! I went ahead and added a "How to Submit to Equestria Daily" section to the Omnibus that (hopefully) clarifies the steps you should take if you want to email us a story for review. Please yell at me at thecouchcrusader on gmail if you disagree with any of the wording, or, as noted by some people above, if the tone is too discouraging or what not. We're all here trying to help you maximize your chances of getting published, after all!
ReplyDelete@CouchCrusader I think that really conveys what you are trying to say... I for one find that one paragraph really encouraging, it breaks the formality of the whole thing a bit and I think will help readers be more relaxed about taking the Omnibus as a real guide to better writing than as a "Do this, or else" set of instructions.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I would also like to wish happy holidays to our pre-readers, and thank you for your time!
Well, my thought is that there should be a happy medium between quality control and accessible advice.
ReplyDeleteIt's all well and good to have rigorous standards, but if the bar is set too high, I feel that we'd be deprived of many quality stories that lack not for want to effort, but for shortage of resources.
I follow one author who I would be surprised to learn could afford to do the whole "print everything out" thing, but his contribution to the site is quite meaningful. If the next author who would have written an engaging epic was scared off by the (in my mind) overly serious tone of the Omnibus, I know we would be all the poorer for it.
Perhaps it's just a matter of tone then? Self editing and personal time are expected investments, but just how many pre-readers/editors you filter your stuff through, and an author's financial investment in the matter could be made as more...I don't know, firm suggestions rather than stern mandates.
@CouchCrusader
ReplyDeleteThat addition is definitely helpful. Thank you for adding it!
Sometime over the next few days, I'll go over the Omnibus and email you any further suggestions.
@Drakmire
ReplyDeleteI hear you (and all the others) who have voiced concerns about the overall tone of the omnibus, and am sad that some people feel discouraged by our words. We're not out to tear people down, we promise. And I do agree that parts of the omnibus are less helpful/more unclear/more esteem-reducing than others.
Still -- a good writer understands when to break the "normal" rules of writing, but only because those writers know the rules are there to break in the first place. The omnibus is more geared toward the beginner/intermediate writer who has yet to learn these rules. The topics we cover within are phrased the way they are to avoid ambiguity as much as possible, which can be just as dangerous to a writer trying to find his or her way in the field as incorrect practice.
@Drakmire
ReplyDeleteD'oh. To address the "print it out" issue -- yeah, printing can get expensive. If it's too cost prohibitive (and I'll see if I can work something into the doc regarding this very point), then feel free to skip the printing step. It just helps me immensely, for one.
What I actually do when I print my manuscripts out is print two pages per sheet, double-sided, to make four pages of writing per page of paper. Remarkably efficient, and still mimics the format of a trade-paperback, which has more than enough margin for edits and revisions.
@CouchCrusader
ReplyDeleteAh, that's a pretty solid way to do it then. I'd be hard-pressed to explain why I spooled up 80 pages of pony fanfiction on my work printer, but perhaps I can find a way if I'm only worrying about a quarter of that : P
After reading through the most recent changes, I feel that the Omnibus is a lot less menacing than whatever earlier version I had open. I think that the important bits have been kept intact without quite so much to scare off potential authors, which is of course a good thing.
One thing I've always wondered about though was the tags like [Normal][Random][Slightly Dark But Kind of Not Really], etc. Although I'm sure some folks feel that they speak for themselves, would it be possible to get a brief description of what each of standard set means (if there even is such a thing)? I feel like it's easy to go too much or too little with the tags because they don't seem well-defined.
@CouchCrusader
ReplyDeleteStrunk and White? Time to pull this article out:
http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497
@RoflLuxRay
ReplyDeleteI never said you have to stick word for word to the show. I pointed out there were three main things about fanfiction. The tone, themes, etc of the show are one of those three things.
Maybe I should make my position clearer. These are the things I think are important. It's why I'm 1 of 30 pre-readers.
Also: Romance, even between stallions, fits in nicely with the friendship and acceptance aspects of the show. M/M isn't my preference, but I've pre-read, offered suggestions, and passed it.
As for gore. A bad writer details intestines and organs. A good writer can have a sense of horror without having to describe every single drop of blood.
"Not feeling like My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic".
This is pretty much exactly it. This is a fan site for MLP:FiM. Not a collection of stories featuring oddly proportioned equines. If it'd unrelatable to the show in any way, how is it fanfiction?
@NAGU
Yes, of course, because popularity == merit. I guess I should stop thinking The Da Vinci Code and Twilight are terrible now?
@Wonderer
I will state, for the record, that, since it's not a job and I don't get paid and/or whipped, I no longer bother to pre-read grimdark fics. I occasionally dip my toe back into it to see if memory is playing tricks on me (on already posted fics) and I've come away face-hooving at the ridiculousness of it every time.
I happen to fully agree with Whiteout that Empty Room is a perfect example of what I think is wrong with almost everything tagged Grimdark.
@Whitefox
Your comment about Ponies Make War is 100% correct (assuming your assertion that it is in character is correct). Most grimdark fics, even those on the blog, have 0 relation to the characters they bother to portray. But I will stick to my assertion that details of organs and innards, unless relavent to the plot in some way, are unneeded.
For a war the way it would actually go down in Equestria, see Sparkle's Law, ATTN: Apples v Carrots.
@KKat
The omnibus is mainly intended for people who have never written before. We get burnt out re-reading the same fic multiple times and sending it back for the basics. It also pisses off the writer to have more issues crop up each time they think they have finally finished it.
It HAS gotten better recently. We're not getting as many fics that look like they went through Babblefish to Chinese and back a few times. Now we are contending more with show don't tell and OoC.
Don't worry, I don't pre-read grimdark anyway. Also, that whole characterization thing pretty much requires you write using canon characters. I'm making assumptions about your future work here.
@Mindblower
This is correct. We used to be able to post just about everything that was grammatically correct. Then we were able to start picking and choosing. With season two here and more and more non-fanfiction posts on the page, we post maybe 3 or 4 stories a day.
We get 30.
You're right that Past Sins would be bounced for edits today. It probably should have been originally, TBH.
@KKAT (again)
The Hate is a mostly from reading 200+ posts and seeing NAGU and others bitching and moaning about us having standards. I spend around 3-5 hours daily trying to pre-read/edit fanfics, (not this last week, sadly. Stupid compulsory OT) Not just 'yes/no', but giving feedback. It really pisses me off to have a bunch of people bitch and moan when we try to help them.
On content, FoE probably would be accepted today. Whether it be bounced for edits isn't something I can say.
@aJonathon
e.e
Welcome to the Internet. Try not to trip over the >opinions.
Spent most of the night on it, but the suggested edits are completed and sent. Hope this helps. ^.^
ReplyDelete@Kits
ReplyDeleteWell, you and Whiteout are entitled to your opinions after all. I did make an effort to make sure that OoC in TER was justified, some people quit reading after the first OoC, other stuck and found out why it was happening. The way I wrote it it has an overall arch that covers all of it. Although admittedly it clearly doesn't appeal to every reader, most readers who bothered to comment on the "OoC-ness" changed their minds later on. I would ask you to give it another try with a grain of salt if you felt like it, but I did read you are tired of GD and it does fall in the category... Maybe give The Sweetie Chronicles a try? I would like to hear from either you or Whiteout on that and it's not grimdark.
But! This is neither the time and place, so I will really leave it at that.
I do hope, however that you didn't feel I was complaining about there being standards (or being dismissive about any pre-readers at all- like I said, I do respect and appreciate the work and time you put into this!)
Anyway, dude, Merry X-mas!
@Kits
ReplyDeleteLet's consider the basic plot structure to answer this point: [Character] wants [Objective], but [Situation/Obstruction].
Now, in fanfiction, only ONE of these variables is not allowed to change at any given time, and since MLP changes Objectives and Situations every episode, that leaves Characters as the only real constant.
The situations, motives, and events, however, are not so confined. Also, fanfiction IS allowed to develop and interpret characters and their motivations and reactions differently than canon, provided there is no countering explanation. Otherwise, you get what is called Alternate Universe, and that's a different beast altogether.
Essentially, that means that so long as the characters are the same as the canon at the start of the story and changes follow a logical character development process, you really can't classify it as "unrelatable" to the show.
That means if I want to have a homicidal maniac go on a rampage through Ponyville, BUT all of the canon characters feel like their canon counterparts (though their personalities DO shift under stress, so you got to be careful), that STILL, technically, classifies as a legitimate premise.
In fact, going places canon would never go IS the primary appeal of fanfiction, in my opinion- to go places where canon could never, ever, EVER. Anything else is pointless- why on earth would I want to read something when I can watch the canon, and feel more entertained? But with fanfic, I can never say that the story would fit better in any other medium, because there simply is no place for it in mainstream media, for both legal and moral reasons, in most cases.
You, however- and, from what I've seen, most pre-readers- do not seem to appreciate seeing sides of characters you would NEVER be able to see in canon. Essentially, it appears that you only want to see stories where every fanon character reaction can be provided with a citation back to a canon reaction- which is fine, but uninteresting from a innovation standpoint, in my opinon.
So, ultimately, that means that appraisal of ANY art form is entirely subjective, and that is why I applaud you for having the sense enough to have many different pre-readers... HOWEVER. You ARE still evaluating things SUBJECTIVELY, which means that pre-readers are NOT a final word on whether a work has any merit. I cannot stress how important it is to consider tastes when evaluating fiction, and there really SHOULD be at least ONE Devil's advocate among you, lest you wind up agreeing on what is "good" and become agitated when a work strives to bend that definition...
That is why I am displeased with your claims that you are "accepting" and "open-minded" about fanfics when such a thing is impossible to maintain when you have agreed on genres that you ALL frown upon. If you're going to evaluate subjectively, then PLEASE don't say that you are being entirely fair UNLESS you have gone through the ENTIRE spectrum of tastes first- which, considering the range of tastes there are, is unlikely to be true.
That's all.
@Kits
ReplyDeleteOkay, I'm going to do my best to make something abundantly clear: we are NOT whining about the fact that you have standards AT ALL. We LIKE VERY MUCH that you have standards. However, we don't have to agree 100% with your standards that aren't quality standards (obvious biases being the most notable thing we're unhappy about), and we certainly don't have to approve of your behavior. And if you don't want to hear from people that you could improve (which to be blunt is quite hypocritical), then I suggest you just quit or buck up and learn how you could improve.
And does it not say anything to you about your behavior in particular that Kkat does not wish you to pre-read any of her future work she may submit to this site, grimdark or not?
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteYour point of failure here is that a homicidal maniac on a rampage is out of both genre and setting for the FiM universe, and glaringly so.
It doesn't really matter if the characters are fully in-character if the events you describe are so far outside of canon as to break the readers' suspension of disbelief. That is the sign of something that, while it may be readable fiction, fails as fanfiction.
i read this, i edit my story, and then i can only feel sad. i'm fairly sure the pre-readers block your email adress after a few failed fics.
ReplyDeleteHello,
ReplyDeleteName is OmegaPony11, how ya all doing? I wasn't going to say anything, having felt I didn't write much to warrant anything but something said has irked me the wrong.
Now to give some background, I am writing a fabric with the tags of adventure, crossover, and grimdark. When I first started this fic, all I wanted was to give tribute to two universes I enjoy, and share this story with bronies who would read it. Thanks to my story, I was able to grow as a writer and meet some excellent folks who take part as editors, reviewers, and most of all, new friends.
While Pony Age continues though, and as all the writers who create works of crossover and grimdark continue to hone their craft, I feel that there is something unfair to our work. I feel that there are members of the prereaders who belittle what we, as writers of our chosen genres, as having little merit and reflecting this attitude onto the omnibus and onto the stories with Sethisto's opening comments.
We are still fans of our favourite pastel ponies, this is merely our chosen form to tell a story. Whether it is sad, random, crossover, or grimdark, we are still fans of the show. We want to express our love of ponies in any way we choose, and EQD has given us a wonderful platform to share our works. Grimdark and all the other tags have seen that ship sail. I do not ask for everypony to embrace all genres, but never tell us we do not deserve the same merit for our hard work.
I've railed on my phone long enough. Hope you all have a great Hearthswarming Eve, and let's have another creative year to show our love for the ponies in our hearts. In our way.
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteThat's all totally opinion, and as a retort I would have you read Silent Ponyville and then have you try and tell me that all grimdark is bad.
Okay, so I've just finished reading the Omnibus, and out of curiosity (even if this seems to be a dumb question), I want to ask - Wasn't there a ban against gore in fanfiction in general, or was that just Cupcakes-level stuff? I'm a bit confused.
ReplyDelete@ThunderDash
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure the gore ban was against stuff approaching Cupcakes level gore.
@Daffodil
ReplyDelete..... like Mare Do Well?
There's a fic in this somewhere, I just know it.....
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteInstead of posting a long, drawn-out comment and possibly sucking myself into this black hold of a mess, I'm just going to state that I firmly believe the perpetrator of all these complaints is the imperfect system we are forced to abide by. That was a mouthful. At any rate, you all have valid points, and I wasn't pointing to any writer specifically, but the reason you may be recieving less than acceptable responses from the prereaders is because they either fail to see your viewpoint or are, frankly, tired of answering the same questions and arguing the same points day after day after week after week. It's similar to teaching class in a school, but at least then you have college to prepare for it.
Your argument is compleely justified, but so is the prereaders', so it's impossible for me to pick a side. However, I can say with a small amount of certainty that you are not the first writers to complain about these exact issues and recieve these exact answers.
@sabersword:
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not! Keep working!
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteI think your definition of fanfiction does a disservice to the medium.
Allow me to rebut with the following recent quote from Chong Tzu in the Fallout: Equestria comments:
The story of the Fallout series says that, at best, rebuilding is possible, and you can move on, but in the end, the idea of a better tomorrow is a fleeting and false one, because the nature of war never changes. Eventually, evil will win out, and the most we can do is stave off the destruction a bit longer. Fallout: Equestria criticizes that nihilism, going for a more existential approach. If the world doesn't seem to care what you do... it's up to you to hold yourself to a higher ideal. To a virtue. And if you can... and if you have the help of friends... you have hope. And in the end, our higher nature is not the aberration. It is evil that is the lingering but pathetic blight on the world, and no travesty can last forever. Eventually… the sun will shine again.
Fallout: Equestria, as far as I can tell, is the thesis on why My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has touched the hearts of so many fans of both sexes and all ages: it's message is a beautiful one, and one that, really, we all need to hear, not just children. It's helped me to understand and explain to others what it means to be a Brony. This story subjects the message of the show to an acid test, and it passes with flying colors. No matter how bleak the world seems, no matter how far you are from the innocence of youth, friendship can triumph over the darkness.
After all, friendship is magic.
I find it very interesting that I haven't said a single word about FO:E, yet you leap to defend it against a general statement that blatantly out-of-character writing is poor form.
ReplyDeleteI haven't gotten around to finishing FO:E to comment on it, but if the author's own assumption is that it's not a very good reflection of the spirit of the base material, perhaps that says something about it.
I know the temptation is always there when you really want to write a fanfic for another gnere entirely, but know it won't bring Internet Stardom the way ponyfic will, but I implore my fellow authors to take a good hard look at their work, and realize the difference between FIM fanfiction and something entirely different reskinned lightly with pony names.
@Whiteout Oh, come on dude! Saying a blanket statement such as "*all* grimdark is BAD and not fit for FiM *Fan* Fiction" beats the purpose of defining it as "Fan Fiction".
ReplyDeleteI mean, you can *not* like Grimdark and that's cool, but just because you don't like the genre doesn't mean that it's not fit to be written.
It's Fan Fiction dude! Everyone that writes it makes assumptions of how a character would react in different circumstances, be them happy or sad. We haven't seen the FiM characters react to really sad/dark events, so we have to imagine it, and if *you* think they would act different, it is again just an assumption of how they would act in the way that *you* perceive the characters. It doesn't make my, their's or *your* perspective less valid.
No fan fiction is Canon. And while we might try to keep them as close to their personalities as *we* individually perceive them, we all will prioritize different aspects in the same character.
I admit that there is plenty of OoC in the genre, but again, it is as a result of *us* authors trying to figure out how those characters would act without a proper frame of reference.
Again, you don't have to like it, but saying *Grimdark is always crap* is basically the same as anyone else saying *Shipping/comedy/trying to be as close to canon when you are not the creator/sad is always crap*
@Whiteout
ReplyDelete"but if the author's own assumption is that it's not a very good reflection of the spirit of the base material"
If that is what you drew from the above, maybe you need to read it again, possibly after putting aside your prejudices. Because that is the absolute opposite of what is being suggested, both by "the author" and by the person making the statement.
"a general statement that blatantly out-of-character writing is poor form"
Are you being purposefully obtuse?
I'm not defending anything against your statement. I'm calling into question the validity of the statement itself, and suggesting that your prejudice has made you incapable of accurately judging what should and should not be classified as "blatantly out-of-character writing".
Maybe I should simplify:
1) It is the author's assumption that Fallout: Equestria is a very good reflection of the spirit of the base material.
2) Some readers would go so far as to say this "grimdark, crossover fanfic" is possibly the best reflection of the spirit of the base material. (To the point where some have even argued that it is a better reflection of the spirit of the base material, at least in some aspects, than the base material itself.)
3) You're opinion of the spirit of the base material is so narrow and shallow that it doesn't provide even the chance for the above fanfiction to even qualify, in your limited view, as fanfiction.
4) Even if the fanfiction above isn't as good as its readers profess it to be, it's still worthy of the title fanfiction and still worthy to be on Equestria Daily.
5) If the above fanfiction is worthy, despite having tags like "grimdark" and "crossover", then other stories with similarly unliked-by-you tags may also be worthy.
Hope that helps. ^.^
@Whiteout
ReplyDelete"Your point of failure here is that a homicidal maniac on a rampage is out of both genre and setting for the FiM universe, and glaringly so."
Your point of failure here is believing that this is glaringly out of genre.
Let's take a look at the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic:
1) Weapons of violence and death are well known. So much so that even in the most idyllic of towns in the most peaceful of times, references to "tanks" and "bullets" are commonplace, and little colts dress up as sword-wielding pirates for Nightmare Night.
2) All six of the major characters have shown signs of psychological frailties or neurosis. One has even had a graphic psychological break.
3) Beneath the thin veil of pastel prettiness and sunshine-warmed geniality, the society is on the constant edge of fear and violence -- to such an extent that we have seen the entire population in multiple towns break into fighting, hiding, panic or war.
This is not a dark interpretation of MLP:FiM.
This is not someone's grimdark, out-of-character fanfic.
This is the children's cartoon you love.
The only thing keeping the cartoon itself from being dark with a possible side of grim is that it's targeted to little girls. If you strip away any of the childishness in an attempt to get at the true spirit of the show, if you attempt to take an adult approach to the show at all, you open up a lot.
Fortunately, beyond the inherent darkness, the core of the show is something beautiful, decent and wonderful. Something potentially life-changing.
And not at all childish.
@Kkat
ReplyDeleteI really want to pick this apart, and go point by point, but I can sum up with less chance of going even further onto a tangent.
You lost me when you decided to imply that grimdark is a better representation of the source material than... the source material.
Either way, I don't think this is a very productive discussion. We're clearly watching different shows here, if your takeaway from the episodes is that it's a thin skin over a grimdark reality.
I mean, that's okay, and all. But I don't think you're working from the same assumptions as most of the audience.
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteNo, Kkat's just looking a bit deeper than you.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteBahaha. A show designed for kids (regardless of the reception of adults or Lauren's wish to be enjoyable to said adults, it's STILL DESIGNED FOR KIDS) having some "grimdark" aspects if you "look a bit deeper"?
If people at studio b could see this thread, they'd be a) depressed that you could even come up with that, or b) laughing their heads off at the same.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteSo, uh, care to explain the Appleloosans using PIES to defend their homes from destruction?
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteI agree. And your ability to say "that's okay, and all" suggests that maybe, just maybe, you're beginning to grasp that there are valid perspectives on what is "in-character" just your own. That seems to me like a huge step towards improvement.
I understand how some people do not believe that anything could better represent the source material than... the source material. They cannot grasp how anything could better represent the spirit and core values in a mature fashion.
They are the type of people who will never understand how this:
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/20500000/Applejack-my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-20527293-570-402.jpg
can possibly be better than this:
http://mylittlewiki.org/w/images/4/48/Aj_pilot.PNG
I'm not one of those people. You see, I'm a fan of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
@Kkat And let's NOT forget the Source Material of our Source Material:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Ll5zaPcIE
Min. 9:43 <--- Little Girls Show.
@Tchernobog Please take a look at the video above.
Aaand... if Studio B were reading this I doubt laughter is what they would have in mind... other than chuckle at how we go at each other, I mean... but, my point: haven't you ever written a story and had someone point out how it made them feel/think a certain way and thought "Huh, never really looked at it that way..."?
Same thing.
@Delta Pangaea Because in the end children will look at it, but the bottom line is that an adult watching can understand both, the comedy and the allegory being made. It's metaphor, but if you think of what it is is representing it's another deal altogether.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Delta Pangaea
ReplyDeleteAllow me to field that one.
In the world of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic:
Guns, cannons and tanks are all known to exist. Yet when war breaks out, the ponies use... pies? Why?
Because it's a children's show aimed at young girls. Having the ponies use guns would make the show too violent for the target audience. It would have alarmed parents, cost them viewership, and hurt Hasbro's pocketbook.
Even before Columbine, there was a move away from depicting firearms in cartoons aimed at young children. One of the first cartoon studios to publicly announce this shift was Warner Brothers, who admitted that the gun-toting "Elmer Fudd" character was inappropriate for today's young audiences and that their new "Tiny Toons" show would strive to avoid depictions of actual firearms.
The Appleloosians were fighting to keep the trees they needed to avoid starvation. Does it make sense for them to fight by throwing away their food as ammunition?
The ponies of MLP:FiM know about guns, they have cannons and... if their actions weren't being "kiddy-proofed" as part of a show for young children... I think it's clear that the Appleloosians would have taken up arms against the buffalo.
What the argument comes down to is a difference of opinion on what constitutes the core values and spirit of the show.
Do you believe, like I do, that the true meaning and spirit of the show is the profound power of friendship to bulwark each other and to overcome adversity? As well as the value of virtues like honesty and laughter, and their ability to see us through hardship?
Or do you believe, like some apparently do, that the true meaning and spirit of the show is a happy, fluffy world where violence involves throwing pies?
If you are part of the latter, to paraphrase Whiteout: that's okay, and all. But I don't think you're working from the same assumptions as most of the adult audience.
@Kkat
ReplyDeleteAre most of the adult audience assuming the Appleloosans would have used guns? I can't speak for them, but I certainly wouldn't.
For one, guns would have changed the whole goddamn episode from a cheerful lesson about getting along into wholesale slaughter of buffalo due to getting shot in the face rather than pied.
And another thing, this is entirely the WRONG forum for a real discussion since alternating huge wads of text is the WRONG way to talk about anything. All you're accomplishing is entrenching yourselves in your beliefs.
If you want to keep discussing it you should get in an IRC channel or something and talk about it in REAL TIME, not playing flippin' ping-pong in a comments section.
I am little distressed to read about crossovers and anime ones in particular being advised against. I generally write and read crossovers, as aside from the occasional exception (On A Cross And A Arrow) I don't find most fics that only involve the show's cast (for ANY show/book/whatever by the way no just FiM) grab my attention all that much perhaps because I like fics about stuff unlikely to happen in show - which probably explains when I do read non crossover stuff it's one where the plot would be unlikely to show up in show.
ReplyDeleteAlso there is a HUGE crossover of anime fans and FiM fans, so poo pooing the idea of FiM / Anime crossovers irritates me. I realise each to there own, but it seems unfair to blacklist the fandom of a whole medium (Japanese animation) which is very variable anyway - it'd be like blacklist all fans of television as it is just that diverse after all.
@Sailor Cadia
ReplyDeletePosting this on behalf of Sordid, as a fellow pre-reader.
Cadia, you say that we don't want crossovers. What gave you THAT idea?! We like crossovers, hay, some of us LOVE them! But some of them Don't Work. They're hard to pull off.
Just as, for example, 'Better Living Through Science And Ponies' was beloved by most of EqD, there was a Naruto crossover that got nuked into the floor in 5 minutes and got pulled when it went up. Prove to us that we actively hate crossovers, I'd personally LOVE to see you try.
Oh I never said you hated it, it's just that section of the omnibus was a little unsettling to me because the impression was given that there is a preset feeling of trepidation towards crossovers. Whereas I think this is unfair against crossovers, I am sure you get plenty of [Normal] badfic submitted as well is all I'm saying! Also I have submitted something under a different nickname (it's a Tiger & Bunny crossover, which I'll admit probably still needs some work as I am a bit out of practise fanfic-wise).
ReplyDelete@T'laren
ReplyDeleteI suspect Cadia is reacting to the wording in the Omnibus. The section on crossovers can be misread that way. When I sent The Couch Crusader some suggestions for editing, I included a slight re-write of that section to clarify.
@Kkat
ReplyDeleteWell, that was timing. -.- Nevermind then.
@Sailor Cadia
ReplyDeleteThe trepidation, as I understand it, is that the pre-readers get a ton of crossovers that are essentially a fic in the crossover'd universe with ponies tacked on to make it eligible for EqD.
Ah that's fair enough, don't like those either - not that say, The Rocky Horror Picture Show... BUT WITH PONIES IN IT! couldn't work but yeah I prefer it when there's a fair bit of Equestria action going on or at least the a good deal of mixed canons going on.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is this: many fics seem to simply be a crossover setting, with the name of a pony attached to it, rather than actually a transporting of the pony TO the setting, or adapting it to the setting, or even trying to mold the FIM setting/story to turn it into this crossover one.
ReplyDeleteThere's an absolute lack of effort in trying to make the reader think "yeah, this could happen in equestria", and instead it's simply "omg, this character in this story acts like pony X, that means they're the same and I will change the story by putting pony's name in it! I'm so brilliant".
That is the nub of the issue here. Some crossovers might actually do it well, most DON'T.
Grimdark is a whole other issue. As a reader (no, I am not one of the prereaders), I can *kinda* see where the inspiration for it comes from in the show. Barely. Hell, I enjoy some grimdark tumblr (though mostly for the art). But most of them just completely rip the characterization to shreds to make it fit in their "dark" setting. Dash as Dexter Morgan, for example? What the hell. Setting wise, plus the general complete lack of writing effort (no editing) found in most of the submitted stuff, it's a drain to read them.
Compound this with the fact that grimdark is the VAST MAJORITY of the submissions (I think last quote I heard was of 48 submissions, after filtering out "dark/grimdark" ones, 8 were left)... yeah. You wonder why grimdark is somewhat frowned upon :P
Maybe there should be a grimdark pony equivalent of EQD~
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Tchernobog
ReplyDelete"Bahaha. A show designed for kids (regardless of the reception of adults or Lauren's wish to be enjoyable to said adults, it's STILL DESIGNED FOR KIDS) having some "grimdark" aspects if you "look a bit deeper"?"
Not sure if serious. There have been multiple instances on mind control in season two. Think about what a horrific violation of someone that is. It only gets into a kids show because people normally don't think about that and because there is a happy ending. The actual psychological consequences would be anything but happy.
(Damned typos)
ReplyDelete@Tchernobog Thankfully I think the pre-readers have done a really good job of filtering crossovers, tastes (grimdark or comedy, etc) aside, I think the ones found in EqD have been for the most part pretty well written.
@Sharlan Or the emotional stress of knowing that the fate of the world (eternal night/chaos) is resting on your shoulders?
@Sharlan
ReplyDeleteOnly adults have the thought of seeing the "horrific violation". Children do not react to that in the same way, thinking of all the psychological consequences, as you put it, of what that pertains. They just see someone else taking over, an "oh no!" moment. We see it differently, but the design being for kids more than likely (i admit to not knowing 100%, obviously) is NOT implying the "consequences".
@Wanderer D
Indeed. I was more trying to explain their possible reasons for the attitude towards grimdark. There's too much of it, and 90% of it is utter garbage, both storywise and how it's written. Can you blame them for not wanting to see more?
@Tchernobog Oh yes, I can totally understand that. Sadly, since EqD is THE place to publish your FiM fiction and be thought of/recognized as a good author I imagine it's not going to stop writers from sending... less than ideal stories.
ReplyDeleteHopefully though, with the omnibus and perhaps a less dismissive (but just as firm) standard for quality more better written fics will arrive.
@KKat
ReplyDeleteI'm an adult fan, and that Equestria is BlueSky rather than GrimDark is a core reason I love FiM. It's refreshing to find a show more interested in being joyful than being gritty.
I don't think anyone is arguing that serious violence makes a fanfic bad, any more than crossover makes a fanfic bad. Both are somewhat out-of-character compared to the show. Both can still not only be great stories, but great pony stories. But that depends on being true to the theme and characters in other ways.
Not every first-time author can pull that off. Some authors don't even want to. In both cases, a little discouragement is not a bad thing.
Fallout: Equestria is not a typical case, because it's a crossover instead of straight GrimDark. I would have lost suspension of disbelief at the first Raider pony, if Raiders weren't justified by the Fallout world. As the quote you provided points out, the story shows how ponies and pony themes can even brighten the post-apocolypse. Most complaints about GrimDark are about stories that go in the opposite direction, darkening the pony world just because. If the GrimDark label becomes license for those stories, fewer ED visitors will read the genre. Who would benefit?
@WhitFox I know you didn't direct the answer at me, and I am not trying to answer in Kkat's stead, but I do have a question about the last point you made... what happens when an author writes a dark story where the explanation happens at the end? As in the resolution, I mean, or even as it is slowly explained as the story goes?
ReplyDeleteAt first glance it would seem random darkening of pony for no good reason, but it is in the end to create interest and drama in the story, so it is actually not random.
Or are you talking about gratuitous and pointless gore?
I am asking because I have been accused here of pointless darkening and OoC myself despite the fact that every single "dark" AND OoC part of my story has an in-story explanation and reason.
@WhitFox
ReplyDeleteI can fully empathize with that. I'm aware that you must get a truly soul-numbing amount of horrible writing, and I am amazed by the pre-readers who can get through that and still remain genial and keep the spirit of openness and acceptance that is the foundation of bronydom. I'm not sure how long I would last.
I'll admit, I came to this thread to find several pre-readers, who are in a position of power, making what read to me as blanket derogatory statements that could seriously wound novice writers not deserving of those sentiments, and an Omnibus that felt, to me, overly discouraging.
Well, let's just say I don't react well to bullies... or to people I mis-perceive as acting that way.
I lept to the defense (even while privately acknowledging that a majority of what I was defending was probably so awful and ugly that I would burn it with loathing), and did so with less grace and geniality than I should have. I apologize for that. I should have been better.
I've tried to do right, both by you and the new writers, by taking several hours to pour over the Omnibus and send in some proposed language changes. Again, as a whole, I think the Omnibus is a wonderful tool with loads of great information. I just think the frustrations of some of the pre-readers has seeped into it, giving it a tone that needs adjustment.
Hopefully, you find it helpful. However, I would understand if conversations here cause you to view any help I try to provide in such a light as to wish to dismiss it altogether.
Thank you very much for your response.
Personally I think GrimDark is being used overbroadly. The term properly applies to Warhammer 40k style stories where love and tolerance actually make you lose. You can't tolerate chaos worshipers because they literally summon daemons who want to kill you and torture your soul. You can't love a Necron because its only reason to exist is to feed your soul to a Star God.
ReplyDeleteFallout Equestria is about the magic of friendship bringing light to the darkness. There is genuine hope that the bad things will be defeated and that defeating them doesn't just mean imposing a horrible repressive dictatorship a la the Imperium.
FO:E is not grimdark, just dark.
@ WandererD
ReplyDeleteIt's a fair point that a story can take time to develop. But I would suggest the first chapters should demonstrate the author's love of the show, as opposed to only showing affection for the GrimDark scenario. This builds trust that there is a resolution worth waiting for. In the example I've used before, "Ponies Make War", the synopsis suggests that being friends might trump being soldiers, the first chapter takes care to mesh with Equestria's backstory, and the second chapter has plenty of normal character moments for the Mane 6 still unaffected.
(This isn't specifically targeted at your stories, which I've not read.)
@KKat
To clarify, I'm certainly no pre-reader. I'll be lucky to make author someday. But I still appreciate your work making the Omnibus more inviting, as well as for FoE. My interest is only in having the good kinds of GrimDark be encouraged.
@WhitFox Yeah, I had thought suggesting that the submitting author should send a brief summary of the whole story (spoilers & everything) for the pre-reader's... but then, the pre-readers are here for quality check, not in-depth analysis to tell the author if the idea is working towards their objective or not... it wouldn't be fair to ask them for all the extra work that would entail...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, yeah, I love Ponies Make War ^_^
i just want to know why i haven't received any response from the prereaders after resending at least once a week for a month along with a few direct pokes at the blogponies.
ReplyDelete@sabersword
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, prereaders are completely swamped with stories such as yours. However, they WILL send you a response, so they haven't just dropped your story. What I would suggest is being patient and, in the meantime, self-editing your story so that it is the best it can be once they do read it. Also, don't resend it once a week; try every other week. I had my story actually lost from the review folder, so resending can serve a purpose provided you aren't annoying about it.
@sabersword:
ReplyDeleteAfter running this question past the pre-readers, I come up with this answer:
"Searching my inbox... 'The Paperwing Institute', November 23: response sent and rejected. That's the most recent entry in my inbox involving sabersword."
If you're talking about a different story, obviously some wires got crossed, or there's something else going on. If you didn't get the response, we can probably forward it to you again.
@Present Perfect
ReplyDeleteno, i didn't get the response. could you please resend it?
This looks helpful. It also looks VERY LONG. I'm going to read it anyway, but the cliff notes or something might prove useful to those with less time than the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering how big of a backlog there is currently. I understand that it's the holidays, but it's weird to see fics about a new episode pop-up the day after and something that I've sent in a week ago still not getting any feedback whatsoever aside from "sent to prereader."
ReplyDeleteI'm usually pretty patient, but I'm almost done with the next chapter and I don't know if there's something in my writing style or presentation that needs attention without any kind of feedback.
@sabersword:
ReplyDeleteWe've asked the blogponies to resend it. Hopefully that will get things sorted out for you!
@Fon Shaolin:
It really is the holidays, though. Response time has been a week or more lately, more if your story was grimdark, since our grimdark-hating pre-readers have been some of the most active. We'll get to it in time, please have patience.
As an author who has been rejected in the past, well all I can say is that it can feel like something is missing. I too have had numerous stories turned down.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is I wasn't told why these were turned down all the time. There was a lack of consistency in the commenting.
The next problem is I made a complete arse of myself because I wasn't given enough to work with when trying to 'fix' what was 'broken' about my story. To the point where all of the Pre-Readers 'Do Not Like Looking at My Work, or Outright Refuse To.' I was told this by Seth, specifically, and what did I do about it?
Well I accepted it, I said to myself and the staff on more than one occasion that it was my own fault. I made the mistakes, at least in part, because I was too passionate about my work and I was feeling stonewalled by the Pre-Readers because they weren't giving me enough to work with.
That didn't stop me from writing, it certainly didn't kill my creativity. But it has led me to the distinct feeling that I have been blacklisted as an author here, that everything and anything I submit is automatically rejected in kind. Even when I tried updating a fic two months back and sent the link directly to Seth it never materialized. It was never updated.
This does not paint a good image of how the site is run, from an outsiders perspective.
I can see a lot of my own faults in this guide, to the point that I feel a little bit like the pre-readers are talking about me behind my back in some sort of Around the Water Cooler setting and painting me out to be worse than I really am.
Any author can be passionated about his work to the point where he becomes blinded to the mistakes he is making. If the mistakes are not properly clarified, and explained in a manner that can be grasped and understood. Well they wind up falling flat.
I applaud the Pre-Readers for cooking up this Guide, however I ask that they take a moment to consider how best to respond to an author when he or she has a moment of passion. I also ask that the authors who wish to submit to this site, please, please, please, try to curb that passion just a little bit.
And for the love of Celestia, if you are Pre-Reading and you really like the story and want the author to improve because he or she has fallen a little flat in some way, Try to make sure the changes that need to be adressed by the author are properly outlined and passed on to the one in question. As it is now, this failure to communicate just isn't any good for both parties.
@Sithicus6
ReplyDeleteTHIS.
SO MUCH THIS.
THIS IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IN THAT HUGE ARGUMENT BUT WAS TOO UPSET BY THE FACT I HAD TO SAY IT.
Communication IS the key issue here.
I really think that fics need to be more evenly distributed through the pre-readers, so that they don't feel swamped. I mean, sure, you guys get, like, 50 or so fics a day... BUT there's about 30 pre-readers. So there really isn't any reason why one individual pre-reader should feel swamped to the point where said pre-reader is unable to say anything constructive about the work- even if that boils down to going back to the drawing board, saying WHY it didn't work is even MORE important than saying what did.
Maybe you guys should distribute yourselves into small groups, each with similar tastes, and divide the work in a bit more organized fashion? I think we may have a bit of a Winter Wrap Up-style organization problem here...
Oh dear,I seem to have stepped in right in the middle of a rather heated argument.
ReplyDeleteAnyway,it may be best to warn writers about having too little to show for their first submission, I tried to send only a prologue, for a story that already seems terribly controversial, and was, not rejected, but more told to go back to the drawing board and write more on my idea.
Also, I'm currently waiting for a response to an email I sent almost a week ago,as well as several follow up emails, and I have no idea if I'm not just stuck in the queue or if my emails are going to the wrong place.Is there any way to make sure my emails are getting through?
@Sithicus6
ReplyDeleteNAGU already said it, but...
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
This is exactly what is wrong: communication. Another thing I would suggest is that the pre-readers should communicate with writers directly more often, instead of everything being related through Seth. Maybe the pre-readers should get their own dedicated email for story submissions. That would make communication more direct, and it would also lessen Seth's gigantic workload. That way everybody wins!
*sends fanfiction* Lalala, going on with my day! Oh whats this? *reads article* CRAP! *goes to sent e-mail, hits reply* "please ignore this e-mail" *crosses hooves* i hope nopony reads this e-mail...
ReplyDelete@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteEverything is filtered through Seth to make sure that the prereaders remain anonymous. Not all writers take rejection or even suggestions very well.
@Mindblower
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant is one email for all the pre-readers. It could simply be something like [email protected] or [email protected] or something similar.
It does tend to get rather annoying when you find that someone posts a fic up on FIMFiction one day only to find out that somehow it manages to get EQD after around 2-3 days, while you have waited for weeks just to get any sort of reply back. So you might get scared and think that the pre-readers auto-rejected your fic on the spot. That is to say IF you ever got any sort of message saying that it was ever sent to the pre-readers at all.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else get annoyed by this? I know I do. I sent a fic a little over two weeks ago and I have yet to receive any reply saying that it was sent to the pre-readers. -_-
@Hivemind
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with you, especially if it's happening in the last two to three weeks. I mean if the Pre-Readers are so busy with holiday stuff be it Christmas or any other denomination you can name, then how is it these stories get put up so fast while yours are left to languish?
The last item I sent in was on December 11th, I will admit right now it had not been betated at that time. I have since been in contact with my beta who expressed continued interest in being my beta, since I didn't want to impose too much on her. I plan on making some corrections for grammar and stuff she suggested.
That being said, why haven't I recieved a single e-mail confirming that my e-mail has entered the next step of the submission process?
I can understand how busy and swamped the staff can get, but when certain things like what Hivemind is saying occur... Well you begin to get a little paranoid.
This guide is very helpful for beginning authors who've never submitted to the site previously, it's even helpful to authors who have comitted some very gross errors in the earlier days of the site, but it doesn't adress some of the concerns we as authors have concerning the submission process as a whole.
I've had stories that were no good, that were rejected and that I chose not to re-submit because they weren't what I considered my best anyway and I didn't feel like going back to the drawing board or continuing them.
But I've also had stories that Seth himself mysteriously got lost, or rather had their tags removed before he had the chance to do anything with them. And I have to wonder, if the e-mail program is dropping tags then there must be some kind of bug in it. Or is it actually dropping tags or was it a deliberate operator error? Personally I'd prefer to think there's some sort of glitch in the program than thinking the worst of our fellow Bronies.
And if a story has gotten lost due to the extreme volume of incoming submissions daily... How do we know? How can we be expected to automatically assume that the e-mail got lost? We sent it, the e-mail program we use says the reciepient recieved it. How are we supposed to assume the thing got lost instead of ignored in favor of some other story or submission?
It is very hard to figure out when something got lost in the shuffle and when something is deliberatley ignored/rejected without any input from recipients end. Especially at this time of the year with all the high traffic and delayed e-mail reading due to the holidays.
Might I make a small suggestion? Perhaps it would be helpful to create an automatic e-mailer response, if our submission is recieved by the system it tags it and automatically sends a e-mail recieved message to the sender. At least for Fanfiction Submissions. Then, if we don't get any further e-mail responses within, two weeks, we can safely re-submit it without fear of it having been seen and rejected by anyone.
It's only a suggestion. And at the same time, with an automated response sent to us it sends a little warning/tone/tag/notification message to the staff letting them know that there's an e-mail in the system waiting for approval.
I'd say fanfictions and perhaps comics would benefit from this, possibly art submissions as well, but that might proove detrimental to the clean up of the e-mail volume issues.
I don't know, I'm just trying to offer some logical and helpful advice to smooth out the running of the site.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteThat would probably work. I'm curious; do the prereaders use a system similar to the Ponychan /fic/ Training Grounds form? As in, in order to submit, authors use a Gdocs form and send in a link to their story? It then automatically appears on a spreadsheet and is higher on the list depending on how long it's been sitting in queue. It is extremely efficient and intuitive.
@Hivemind
I think we can all agree that's troublesome. However, remember that the prereaders are lending you their time, and if you resubmit after being rejected it usually takes much longer. Still, the prereaders should do all they can to improve their system and make lives easier for all.
@Sithicus6
ReplyDelete@Mindblower
Probably should have re-worded my last post there a bit...or I was just stupid and didn't think first. :L
Holy crap.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad I decided to read this before I posted my fanfic. Excuse whilst I go edit it.
after spending weeks of my life attempting to get my work published, i've just come to the conclusion that i just should not bother writing fanfiction. you guys don't want it and far be it from me to waste any more of your time.
ReplyDeleteSounds like some of you have been waiting an extraordinarily long time. But come on... this is the Christmas/New Years holidays. If there is any set of weeks where the pre-readers, who are graciously offering their time, should be able to sit back and only read the stuff they want to (even if that's nothing at all), this is that time.
ReplyDeleteMany have family and friends they are spending the holidays with. Let them. Don't pester, not right now. I know it's frustrating (I'm waiting to see what they do with my Omnibus suggestions), but let's show some perspective.
Be noble. Consider the last two weeks of December to not have counted when you start adding up how long you have waited.
The stopwatch that should have been on pause the last two weeks is only now restarting. And there is without a doubt a backlog to start through. Give them at least the rest of the week before demanding they tell you that they received your work.
Thank you.
I'm not sure if EQD is the place for my fic i'm already 6 chapters in and i have a plan but viewing the requirements i'm thinking they wont take it but i still may try. But in the event it is turned down does anypony know any other places i can upload?
ReplyDeleteKkat
ReplyDeleteso true dude!
and never mind about the helps ponies i found someplace!
@Title
ReplyDeleteDon't you fellows mean "Editor's Omnibus"?
>Goes into actual Google doc
...Close enough.
This. Is foxmane and maker of the fanfic I just submitted called Peace and Chaos. I'm nervous if you will allow my fanfic on the site. Its my very first fanfic and I worked very hard to make it an I hope it is quailfied to be in equestria daily so please omnibus I hope u enjoy it and may it have a good place in Equeatria Daily. Thankyou for your time and await for ypur reply as you are a busy pony.
ReplyDeleteThis is FoxMane
-END OF LINE
Im so sorry for my improperly prepared fanfic. Im sorry Midnight Shadow for this inconvenience i placed upon you.
ReplyDeleteVery well done. Very helpful when it came to the proper diologue bit.
ReplyDelete