Good evening, fillies and gentlecolts. How’s your day going so far? Good? Glad to hear it.
Now, I’m sure you’re wondering why some guy you’ve never heard of is asking you about your day on the internet’s most popular My Little Pony fansite. Is there a new blogpony? Is this some type of incredibly polite hacking attempt? Has Seth given control of the site to Nigerian princes to use as collateral during a multi-million dollar cash transaction?
Temporarily, no, and not yet.
I’m here on behalf of the EqD fanfiction pre-readers. For the past few weeks we’ve been dealing with a huge influx of fanfic that doesn’t look like it’s going to let up anytime soon. A good chunk of these are stories that have been resubmitted after being sent back for revisions. Unfortunately, many of these resubmissions have had very few changes made from their original drafts, which requires us to read them (again), make a list of problems (which is often strikingly similar to the previous list), and send these back to the author, after which the process will likely repeat itself.
This really jams up our queue and makes things take much longer than they normally should. After bouncing some ideas around, we have come up with a system that will hopefully solve the problem: a three-strike policy.
Here’s the short version: Stories can be sent back for revision three times before we stop looking at that story, barring special circumstances (for example, if a story is very close to being accepted but needs just one more round of editing, we’ll give it a free pass).
Now, I know that sounds rough. “But Daff,” you may be thinking, “isn’t it the pre-reader’s job to help me fix my work so I can get it on EqD?” Alas, dear reader, it isn’t. I wish we had enough time to sit down with every author and help edit their work to perfection, but there just aren’t enough hours in the day. Our job is to vet stories for quality and content, nothing more. But don’t give up just yet. There is still hope. The editors over on Ponychan’s /fic/ board do some incredible work, and would be more than willing to help any would-be author bring their story as close to perfect as possible (assuming said author reads the sticky at the top of the page before posting). Additionally, we pre-readers have our own thread where we’re happy to answer any questions related to submissions, content, or writing in general.
Between these two resources, I think any author is capable of getting their story up to snuff in under three submissions. We don’t like rejecting stories, but this is a necessary step to make life easier for all involved.
Keep on being awesome, EqD.
326 comments:
On an unrelated note, it will be interesting to see the reception of the next story post that comes on. What with all this boiling and sloshing, if said fic isn't brilliant, there's probably going to be a lot of whining and finger-pointing... =\
ReplyDelete@starlitalpha
ReplyDeleteThis is kinda why they made the rule, you aren't getting a respond because there is so much clogging the system from the twelve times Johnny Applepear has sent his 200k unfinished epic of how he has made all the main six his pets and how he enjoys his afternoon without pants.
The rule needs to exist because of this sort of thing, but I think there should be a bit more acceptance from the pre-readers that there is a bit of a bias issue at hand for it to go with the three-strike's rule. But, unless something is done to keep the bias honest, not doing anything because of it seems stupid when people have to wait months to get responses because there are too many crappy stories in queue already.
@Yours sincerely
ReplyDeleteHope so....
@Yours sincerely
ReplyDeleteSomething tells me that it could be perfect, but people would still bitch about it anyway...
I absolutely support this rule. Now, I'm not a writer or a pre-reader for anything but I do read fanfiction. I do use FimFiction but as others have said, there is a lot of crap there and authors who will rage if you tell them they need to fix things. If I'm looking for quality fics, EqD has been the first place for me to search. I like the fact there are pre-readers who sort the good ones from the rest.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I think it's important pre-readers get to do their jobs and not have to read the same fic over and over again because the author thinks he can't be wrong and won't fix a thing. Having this system in place should make writers edit their stories more. I don't know about those who feel they have been rejected out of personal bias... Maybe have a system where you send the story in next time with that "unjust" review or whatever it's called.
I like reading quality stories. If standards would be lowered this place would be filled with bad or meh stories. That would make it even harder to find good fics. Everyone should just remember that EqD is NOT a fanfiction site even though it posts fanfiction. You WILL get readers on FimFiction, just not as many as you might get on EqD.
Anyways, long post is long. :P Thank you to all the pre-readers for sifting through the fics for us. Everyone else, chill out and have a good day.
Honestly people, the pre-readers here are amazing people, on average if they reject your fiction. It probably means one or more of these things:
ReplyDelete1: They spent more time reviewing it then you did correcting the mistakes inherent to every story. Even the most famous stories in the world fandom, and the most popular stories have mistakes that need to be fixed. Fix them or you will never have a good story. Remember if we can't read it we won't enjoy it.
2: You have no motivation. You can't just pick up a pen, sit down one day, and write the most heart wrenching poem, or draw a masterpiece without inspiration. Same thing with a fanfiction.
3: Your story sucks. Sorry, i'm being honest here, if your story is uninteresting or overdone, then you need to either find a way to make it much different, or find a new idea. It is difficult to find new ideas, but they are out there, you just need to search for them.
4: Your writing style/ technique lacks luster. If your word choice is completely ordinary, and there is nothing to separate you from the other run of the mill writers, then nopony will pay you any attention. Go and find what you're good at, it might not be writing. If it is writing and you encounter this problem, try making shorter fics if you usually make long ones, or vice versa. It helps to mix things up, it gets the juices flowing to the brain. If your word choice is the problem, just grab a dictionary, read some interesting words and begin to incorporate unusual vocabulary into your fiction, however there is a fine line. On one hand you use plain boring language and it's uninteresting; on the other hand you risk overwhelming your audience with overly complicated words. Either way is not a good situation to be in, but when you are in the middle it can add a much needed boost to a fiction.
Basically. This is the kind of stuff we look at on /fic/ as you can see in the email's the EQD pre-readers try their best but there are simply to many fictions to little time. If you want comprehensive break down's only specifically about your story,a nda re not afraid to fix a few things when asked to, then come over to http://ponychan.net/fic/ But please read the big thread at the top first, if you say "So and so sent me from EQD" everyone will either ignore or report you. Go to a review thread they are everywhere.
I originally decided I didn't like this Daff guy. He comes off as very full of himself, offering platitudes rather than just stating the new rules and reinforcing the old. He redirects any dissenters, waves off any myths regarding prereaders with an unnecessary air of snobbishness, and generally drove me to skim his post for content while he seemed to revel in the stench of his own smug.
ReplyDeleteBut he said Rarity is the best pony, so he's okay. That's all I ever want from a mod, anyway.
Ugh, I kind of pity the pre-readers after reading this... I mean, I knew they had to read a lot of terrible terrible dreck before, but to learn that people are resubmitting their crappy stories 2,3,4 times with minor revisions... dude, your crappy story isn't good enough for the site, get over it, stop writing, try drawing, or knitting pony stuff for people. Sheesh. Secondly, are you that desperate for attention? I've submitted the one story that I thought MIGHT have a chance of making it on this site, it had 1 paragraph of gore in it, it got rejected for gore, I didn't change anything and resubmit, I had pride in my work. My point is, getting your fanfic on EqD is "neat", but stop obsessing... it's not a big deal.
ReplyDelete@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteSorry, that comment about obscure crossovers was badly-worded. I meant crossovers that expected the reader to already know about the obscure thing that was being crossed over with and are inaccessible to those who do not. If a crossover can get you into something, it is obviously accessible to everyone and does not fall under my ire. But I'm not a prereader, so don't worry.
Perhaps the crossover thing was a bad example, but what I'm basically saying is that authors should chill out about getting on EqD. Not every story's going to be on here, and no, not every good story's going to be on here. Some authors seem to write just to get their stories on the blog, and that saddens me. Write because you want to write, not for fleeting internet "fame".
Being turned away for one or two grammar errors isn't something that this rule will aggravate. You have three strikes, and this post even says that a fourth opportunity will be given to stories that are close enough to being posted. Grammar errors are easy to fix, so why shouldn't they just get fixed?
I maintain that correct grammar and punctuation should be a minimum standard for fiction, and not something that only OCD people worry about.
I've been sent back for spelling errors, fine. But on my later fics, I've been sent back for stylistic things and adding in what I thought were pointless scenes. Point of view? Possibly. But the standards of the prereaders need to go up, too. u_u; And become, you know, standards.
ReplyDeleteI am a writer of fanfictio myself and I approve of this idea.(Not saying it is without faults, but I think it should be tried, and if it does not work the system can always be changed) Though I do want to mention based on something mentioned higher up in the comments. Lowering the standards and letting more fics through is not a good solution in my opinion. I(and probably some other writer) have by now invested MONTHS of time into writing and the main thing which keeps me going forward is going on EQD someday(been putting sending it in off for way to long now..) because that would actully be something likean accomplishment. If EQD now became a side just like any other and took everything which was readale it would lose the apeal of it.(As it is right now EQD brings attentions to the stories which really diserve it and support the writer by allowing him to gain feedback)
ReplyDeleteThe first time I submitted my fic, it was painfully obvious that they didn't read the email I sent further than the title. In the description and tags both I said it was not a Crossover, and yet the response I got was "Sorry, we aren't accepting any more crossovers from this series."
ReplyDeleteI've renamed the thing and gotten more useful feedback since, but I was not amused by my response.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteI'm not a pre-reader. I'm a writer. Everything I've said to this point has been basic writing common sense.
If someone can't be bothered to provide the bare minimum amount of editing required to have a readable story, then they really should be held accountable.
I personally haven't run into any bias from the pre-readers. Only helpful and informative feedback that, when listened to, led to my being published on the site.
Trust me, my entire story was read. The pre-readers caught things I wouldn't have noticed. I took their advice and presto!
As for getting more pre-readers, why not offer your services? If your answer is "I'm too busy", then join the club. We're lucky as authors to have the pre-readers that are available right now.
All they are asking is that people put the minimum amount of effort needed into their stories.
From there, even if you have a perfectly edited story - it might not make it. Bias? YES! Because their job is to choose the stories that they feel are the best to put on the site. Some amount of bias (read as: opinion) is a REQUIREMENT.
I submitted my own story knowing that there was every chance that they wouldn't like it and I'd get a rejection. Instead, they liked it and told me to fix the few problems with punctuation that were present.
Not everyone will be so lucky. I'm hearing some people complain about "too many war fics being rejected" etc. Okay, so maybe people should submit fewer war fics? Branch out and try a comedy. My biggest project is a Human-in-Equestria dark war story. But I decided to write a comedy to submit to EQD and it got through.
Authors shouldn't be afraid to try something new. If stories of a certain kind don't seem to be getting through the pre-readers, just try something a little different. Getting rejected from EQD isn't the end of the world, it's merely an invitation to try harder.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFinally a decent place to rant. Hello daffodil for I have a few things to say. First, your pre readers are too biased. I cant tell you how mad I get when a story is rejected just because of the source material. For example, freindship is survival got great reviews (and I liked it alot and tracked) on fimfic, but it got rejected because there was quote "to many left 4 dead crossovers" where are they? My suggestion is to go designate a pre reader to their general prefernce in material. For example, dont get someone who hates shipping stories reviewing a shipping story. Also, get more pre readers if the work load is too much. Heck, I wouldn't mind to be a pre reader. I know how it feels like to read and continually re read the same thing over and over again after being a pre reader for my brother's story (hopefully we will see it here when he finally decides to submit). I know it is boring and repetitive but it is your job. I can definetly see where you are coming from with this new rule. Seems fair enough. Although, you could give a little more criticism of what is wrong with the story. The above example makes it seem as though you didnt even bother to read the story and just skipped it to make your lives easier. Not fair to the authors who spend so much time and effort into making these stories. It is a serious put down and can make authors feel like they arnt good enough. Anyway, thanks for your time and please get more pre readers.
ReplyDelete@BorgiaBrony
ReplyDelete>I stopped taking /fic/ as a legitimate source of reviews after one guy complained something Discord dis with his magic didn't make any sense. And he was serious.
....
Words fail.
@Kits I forgot, did Beating the heat make it on this site? It was writtin by Andrew Joshua Talon (AKA progress) that basically has to to do with ponies in heat screaming "Mount Me!" It actually isnt as bad as it sounds and is not rated mature. Its kinda like the Triple x story from a few days ago. It has a good rating, it is not a clopfic, and it was written really well. Just a sugestion. Here is a link http://www.fimfiction.net/story/9329/Beating-the-Heat
ReplyDelete@Supertrekkie4
ReplyDeleteAgreed, I wrote my first fanfiction, was so excited. Submitted it and it got massacred. But guess what? I didn't fix it or resubmit, because I had pride, and I have gotten better. When I think I have a really excellent story to submit, I will. Until then I'll keep out of their hair.
I suggest you all do the same, if you story does not have the proper grammar or speling for a word lik jsut, then do not submit. I'm in charge of an entire group on DeviantArt's fanfiction section, I cannot tell you how many people put no effort past putting the idea on the computer. And it always ends the same, them asking, "Why not? You let this and this in."
My answer, "because you can't even get a basic sentence right."
Something I've noticed - most of the folks in favor of the three strikes rule have either been accepted in the past, or they seem to have a fairly strong grasp on the English language (and thus, would likely pass if they ever did write a fic).
ReplyDeleteThe only ones that seem to be in opposition to the rule are those that likely shouldn't be posted in the first place.
@Vargras
ReplyDeleteIf single comments could be given stars, you would be GIVEN ALL OF MINE.
@TheSlorg
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
@Vargras
ReplyDeleteThat would seem to be the case.
In addition, I'm really getting tired of these claims of pre-reader bias. I was in that boat once - I submitted my first fic twice, and both times, it was declined. And yeah, I was angry, because I thought I had done a good job. I blamed it on pre-reader bias.
ReplyDeleteBut looking back on it, everything the pre-readers told me was a valid point. It was an actual, legitimate issue, and my own pride kept me from seeing that my 'great' fic actually wasn't so great at all.
When the pre-readers decline your fic and point out issues with it, they're not trying to be hurtful - they're trying to help you. These folks are writers too, and at one point or another, they were in the same situation that we were in. They were just starting out, and despite them thinking their works were good, their fics may have been rife with errors. But over time, they improved, and reached the point that they're at today.
This is precisely what the pre-readers are trying to do. There is no 'bias'. These are fellow fic authors who are simply trying to help you so you can reach your full potential, and these same people deserve our thanks for simply setting aside time in their schedules so they can read our fics to make sure we've done everything properly.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDelete>It's the sort of thing that inevitably forces a bunch of really good stories out of sight and away from the eyes of the fandom, into some corner of FiM:Fiction where nobody will ever see it.
Now that is truly depressing. :(
@Specter Von Baren
>Yet another sign to me that everyone is going to have to stop relying on EqD for their ponyfiction. We've been getting less and less stories as the standards have gotten more critical.
The answer, it seems to me *is* FIMfiction. Why are people acting like FIMfiction is this ghetto den of scum and villainy? Like they're "too good" for a FIMfiction account lol. FIMfiction has more freedom, a better rating system, a bawsssss advanced search, and several methods of showcasing cool new stories. I haven't seen a new fanfic on EQD that's really made me stop and stare in weeks. SERIOUSLY, WEEKS. Meanwhile, FIMfiction gives me that oh-so-badass Watchmen crossover. Phew. MotherFUCK the 347 comedy shipfics that will get EQD love before Rorschach in Equestria. lmao @ pre-readers rejecting it because of the grammar errors in Rorschach's journal.
If you're not an established writer, Fimfiction.net is useless. Absolutely useless. Your story gets buried. You post it, it spends 5 minutes scrolling down the front page, and then it's gone, spammed away, never to be viewed.
ReplyDeleteShipfics collect a few views, sure, because people go looking for shipfics. Non-shipping fics by unknown authors get zero attention. Why? Because they don't have hundreds of fanboys to spam it to the front page and keep it on the front page.
I've had a story up on Fimfic for two weeks and it has received approximately 150 views. Will that number go up when I update the next few chapters? Sure, it will. But after I've done that, and the story is 30,000 words long, there will still be a story on the front page with the same wordcount that has hundreds of comments and hundreds of concurrent viewers.
@TheSlorg
ReplyDeleteI think you're misinterpreting me. I never said a writer shouldn't edit. I'm saying prereaders seem to be telling people to edit things obsessive compulsively, and seem to be rejecting stories on improper basis. Just look around at the stories people are telling on this post... rejecting for opening paragraphs that are supposedly cliche, but I've honestly never seen anywhere else... rejecting and attempted manipulation of stylistic choices... rejecting for not enough detail about the villain even though the genre is mystery... rejecting and not even reading the whole thing... rejecting on the grounds of what it's crossing over with...
I'm sorry, but if these people are to be believed, then it seems as though the prereaders aren't doing their jobs right. They're restricting excellent stories from making it on the site, and now they're trying to restrict us MORE... and they're not even holding themselves to a higher standard to make up for it.
Why not offer my services? Well aside from the fact that they're starting to look more and more like a bunch I'm not sure I want to hang out with, I DID say that I would be happy to join them as a prereader once I graduate in May.
It's starting to look like the only way you'll get through is not only if you have a good story, but also you just have to be plain lucky. Lucky enough not to get a biased or lazy or uninterested prereader.
We have around thirty pre-readers on the team at any given time. If someone doesn't like a certain topic, someone else will pick it up. Shipping lovers read shipping.
ReplyDelete@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteReplying because I got a kick out of the fact that's my fic in the second picture. XD
@mycutiemarkisagun
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with you that Rorshach in Equestria is awesome, perhaps you should take a look at Mad Brochacho's comment, given that he explains the problem with FIMfiction far better and more succinctly than I would.
@Vargras
ReplyDeleteUm... what post are YOU reading?
I'm sorry, but I'm seeing a ton of comments of the ilk 'I'm not a writer but I approve of this' or 'I'm currently trying to write a fic and haven't posted yet, but I think this is a great idea!'
Furthermore, the people in opposition of the rule include eloquent and intelligent people like Specter von Baren so... yeah, I don't know what post you've been reading.
I want our fandom to be known for hard work, well thought out, and good quality projects. EqD represents the pinnacle of our fandom since it is the most popular site regarding the show. If a person who has no idea what our fandom is about and is interested to find out more, they would probably come to this site through a Google search (which is how I found it). When they get here, do we want them to see to worst of this fandom's work, or do we want them to see the fruit of our labor, the cream of the crop, and the chef's choice on the menu?
ReplyDeleteThe problem with fan fiction is that all it takes to motivate a "writer" to start one is a little imagination. This show causes people to be "chalk full of it". Since writing tends to be a thing that "everybody can do" in one form or another, (unlike making art or music) we will see more writing submissions than anything else. It's an obvious fact. Many people who think they can write do not know that there is ALOT more involved in writing than you think. I'm no writer either, I'm terrible at gathering my thoughts as evident in this freaking essay I'm typing right now.
I love reading so when a piece of writing comes up on EqD, I'll assume since it made it on EqD, it must be good, right? Not so. I hate reading fanfics now. Lately about 90% are terrible in different ways. There's too much of it now and it's becoming the side of the fandom I don't go to anymore. It's awful.
My point is, is that Eqd is supposed to bring out the best of the fandom, but it can't do that when the majority of what makes up dailey posts are half-baked, not well thought through, terrible plotlined stories.
With our growing fandom we need to start "trimming the fat" leaving the healthy "red meat". In order to keep our fandom healthy and in fantastic shape decisions must be made and not everyone can make the cut for the starting lineup (that is front page on Eqd).
Personally, I haven't read a good story since Past Sins. Yes it's been that long. I'm hoping that changes with these new rules now that the good ol' mods are tightening the belt.
I agree with this notion and believe it will put the site back into its prime.
Thank you mods for working hard and working for the best of everyone.
@Orion
ReplyDelete>Heck, I wouldn't mind to be a pre reader.
This is why you can't be a pre-reader.
Coming from a guy who just barely got a story on EqD today (yay! And on the first go through too :D ), and a couple of other stories that are considered good but aren't content appropriate for this site, I think this rule is definitely a good thing, though I think it would be beneficial to have some sort appeal system. That said, if you aren't willing to get your crap together and edit your story properly, you really shouldn't bother. I mean, if you aren't willing to give it your best, why do it at all?
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteAn article about the EqD pre-readers that doesn't slam shipping or self-inserts. I'm seriously impressed.
Attention writers: if you send something back to them three times with minimal changes; chances are it's speaking to you in it's current form. Forget the pre-readers and post it, and appreciate any readers you get.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteI recall you as being around for some time. It is with the respect levied to a veteran reader that I must point these out:
>Just look around at the stories people are telling on this post... rejecting for opening paragraphs that are supposedly cliche, but I've honestly never seen anywhere else...
The weather report beginning can be done right. 90% of the time, it isn't. Pre-readers have let good weather report intros in before, and as one of them has said before, they don't reject simply on the basis of the first few paragraphs. They reject when numerous errors pop up consistently.
>rejecting and attempted manipulation of stylistic choices...
I tried a style that involved no quotation marks. Heh. My reviewers told me to stop mickeying around. Sometimes we as authors fall in love with our little quirks. Sometimes, we're deluded. I myself, when reviewing, always dish out the "either quotes or italics for thought, not both" line because it irkes me when I'm reading, and I believe that it irkes others too. Things like these need a reviewer's time/one-to-one attention to highlight, for an author to actually realize this.
>rejecting for not enough detail about the villain even though the genre is mystery...
Something along the lines of "don't withhold information unnecessarily". This is a case-by-case thing that I can't give any general commentary about.
>rejecting and not even reading the whole thing... rejecting on the grounds of what it's crossing over with...
Even /fic/ reviewers do this: "Your characterization is off" "Your main character is a Gary Stu" "You lack basic proper spelling/dialogue punctuation" "This fic isn't going anywhere apparently". Most of the time, it boils down to "suspension of disbelief". If a reader thinks it's a waste of time continuing, they'll stop. It's the pre-reader's job to tell authors this, because they are responsible for putting the best fics up.
As for crossovers, "originality" and "accessibility". Too many crossovers are simply "X with ponies instead", or "MC of X-over in Equestria". The former shows little originality (plot and conflict and even characterization are all riding on the X-over template) and the latter lacks accessibility, assuming that the reader knows who said person is and why is he/she so significant (generalization, but applies a good majority of the time). I once read a fic that went "_ was sitting in his throne, _ Hunt, _ Prince of Darkness, something-something". I ditched it after half of the first page, because the significance was lost on me.
Now, this: there's 30-something pre-readers. If not even one of the lot can identify what one's X-overing with, how can one expect the audience of EqD to accept it? And that isn't going into Mary Sue-ism, characterization, plot interest, so on so forth.
@Weim_Time
>good story since Past Sins
I shall respectfully withhold my opinion about that and suggest you try out Cold In Gardez' "The Contest", Thanquol's "The Old Tales" followed by "Yours Truly". The Pony Psychology series? "The Rummy Business of Old Blooey" if top hats are your thing.
Lots of 'bawww, I wanna be a fanfic superstar, but writing well is too haaard' up in here.
ReplyDeleteWhy not just let a whole bunch more people be pre-readers to help deal with the influx of fics? It would be much more constructive than smashing the dreams of bronies who aren't so good at writing, but still want to express themselves.
ReplyDeleteAllowing self-expression from anyone is an important part of what keeps the brony community so lively and productive.
If the community's growing and the stuff from the past sticks around, this implies that the level of work pre-readers have will increase in proportion to an integral of the growth rate of the brony community. We can derive a rough estimate of this growth rate from a quick google trends search, take the integral of that, and see how fast we should be taking on pre-readers to keep work-level constant.
The only problem that results from having many pre-readers is proper networking on large scales. I suppose a forum exclusively for pre-readers could be opened up to act as a hub that would allow for that sort of networking. And perhaps we could allow for public transparency so that people who submitted fics could browse the forum for a while and leave having even more insight into what they were doing wrong.
This is not a vanity press, nor is self esteem a good reason to pass a fic of sub-par quality. Posting anything is what DA, FiMfic, and ponychan are for.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you understand the purpose of prereaders as quality control.
Also, I might be interested in volunteering as a pre-reader, so what exactly are the qualifications for that?
ReplyDelete@Sethisto
ReplyDeleteI have an idea for an alternative course of action:
@Mike
...I suppose that it eventually means that fics will be posted in larger quantities, but it would also mean that those fics would be of higher quality at the same time.
At any rate, only 30 pre-readers? seems like a small front line of defense when there are so many thousands of bronies.
Honestly, if a work is of good quality to begin with, I dont see the process needing to take three or more turns to fix it up anyway. The site's goal is to find the quality works, not to spruce up every single thing that comes down the pipe.
ReplyDeleteThough, I don't know what the outright rejection rate is... so *shrug*
@VHS
ReplyDeleteYou want to know the problem with the weather-report opening?
It's usually the author.
That's right, I said it.
We're dealing with, here, amateurs. That's okay, no shame in that, but you must have heard of http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/, the bulwer-lytton contest.
"It was a dark and stormy night" - these words and similar grace some of the worst fiction ever to have been written. It's a hallmark of lack of skill, right up there with self-insert mary-sue stories, and in this fandom alicorns and humans in equestria.
Breaking those stereotypes takes pure, unbridled skill. Most amateur authors don't have the cojones to do it. No, you won't get binned for a weather report opening, but do be aware that as a hallmark of lack of ability it will unavoidably colour first impressions.
Can those first impressions be overcome? Sure, but do try not to make things harder for yourself.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteIn my experience, if an author Does Not Get It, then an appeals system comes down to "but I'm right and you're wrong and you do you know anyway you're only a pre-reader for a blog read by millions, I'm the author here".
Trust me, the whining grates after a while. When I've gone to bat for something I think is wrong, it has usually ended up getting the rating it deserved, and by the fic-reading public.
As always, the rule is generally "make it ready FIRST", "make the changes you're asked to" and then "don't be a dick". The uncomfortable spectre of being told it's still not good enough is out there, but there's not much we can do about that.
@basically everyone complaining about this
ReplyDeleteEquestria Daily is not an academic institution, or a court, or a newspaper, it is a blog. Run by volunteers. No one gets paid for this, and EqD has no obligation to post any fanfic submitted, yet the amount of content published here is tremendous. Three strikes on a submission is a very fair rule, and apparently it's four strikes if it just comes down to a few typos and grammar errors on the third strike. Asking for an appeals process is just fucking silly. The three strikes is the appeals process. It's the maximum you would get on any almost any college assignment, and usually not even that, and those tend to be far more important than getting a fanfic published in EqD (they are also all submitted to the same person). You are not owed more than that. In fact EqD does not owe you anything at all. If you do not like it there are a number of other sites where you can post your story.
What's more, EqD has some 30 pre-readers already. It's actually rather incredible they have assembled that many people willing to do this sort of thing for free and have some degree of talent at it? People can stop suggesting that they add more pre-readers: they are continuing to add as many as they possibly can.
@Daffodil
ReplyDelete@Midnight Shadow
Hey guys. What's your approach to really long fics? The one I'm writing is reaching 30k words already and it's only ~10% of what it will be when complete.
It's my first fic. Writing it takes a ****load of time but I'm trying to do my best, usually rewriting paragraphs at least twice. English is my the 3rd language so, well, you get the idea. I have two editors already but neither of them is a native english speaker.
I want to submit it here when it reaches ~100k words. I assume that nobody will be willing to go through all of it so should I hint to the most important parts or the most interesting ones of the fic? Should I add a summary or a at least some list of context to let a prereader get a grasp of the story?
I'm writing this in haste so my english may be lousy but the fic is much better ;) No weather reports!
PS.
I know that I should have started with shorter stories but they are generally boring. At least for me. No time to create an universe, no time to develop characters, not enough time for plots...
I totally heard this post as read by the Old Spice guy.
ReplyDelete@Aquaman52
ReplyDeleteActually the lesson from Applebuck season is to get your friends to help.
I think before you submit a story to the pre-readers you should find your own set of honest pre-readers and have them give it a go since they will have more time to talk to you about what they didn't like. Even Stephen King does this and he swears by it. How can you argue with the master?
ReplyDelete@Maquabra
ReplyDeleteI would suggest getting feedback on your first 30k words at this point from somewhere, like ponychan.net/chan/fic as previously suggested. That's already a very large amount of writing, and you might want to get some opinions on how it's going at this point.
Btw are you Brazilian?
I'm just going to say this. I am not an author, I have never submitted any stories here, or anywhere. But what I have seen, is very, very good ponyfic denied by pre-readers for reasons that amounted to, "I don't like your style, re-write the entire thing."
ReplyDeleteI submitted my story and was redirected to Ponychan for overuse of ellipses and "general grammar/word choice on the rest" or whatever. Still don't quite get that last part. I did resubmit it after attempting to fix this problem, but I haven't received a response, so either the pre-readers are swamped or they just have the same issues. Either way, good luck reviewing whatever crap/good fan-fiction that comes your way, pre-readers. Good luck.
ReplyDeleteWell, there's nothing I like more than wading into a contentious discussion to offer my useless opinions.
ReplyDeleteAs a new writer (and one whose first submission was completely broken and unprintable) I have a word of advice for my fellows:
Remember why you're writing. If you're like me, it's because you want to entertain. Rejection means you failed to entertain. I want to be a good entertainer. When I fail it, I want to be protected from embarrassing myself. That way when I do succeed my good work will shine untarnished by my mistakes.
Listen, I spent two sleepless nights pouring my soul into my first fic. When the pre-reader comments came back dismissive and harsh, I nearly vomited. I nearly cried. My guts turned to ice and I closed the email at the first sign of criticism. I didn't muster up the courage to read all the way through it for hours.
I had the same first reaction we all have. "He's wrong. He didn't get the emotional weight of this scene. There's no 'googlie eyes,' what does that even mean?"
But you know what? I calmed down, took another look, and realized they were right. The story was bad. The emotions I poured into it were real, and it had some moments that were beautiful, but it was broken and boring and poorly paced.
I went back to the drawing board, then halfway through my next project I went back to the board again.
Four months later my debut fic has a few thousand views and it's sitting at a 4.8 rating here on EQD with maybe 2 unimpressed comments. I feel fantastic -- the rush I get from each positive comment and happy reader is worth a hundred rejections. (I also feel super guilty that chapter 5 is late... sorry!)
I would never have felt this way if I'd clung to that first story.
Kill your darlings. See your stories through neutral eyes. Get a stranger to pre-read them.
If there's just one idea I suggest a new writer try to embrace, it's this: If the reader doesn't understand, it means I haven't explained it right. If the reader doesn't empathize, it means I haven't presented it right. If the reader is bored or confused, it means I haven't paced it right. I write because I want to delight the readers. That means the reader is always right, even when he's wrong.
Oh, and listen to Writing Excuses. 15 minutes every Monday that WILL make you a better writer.
@Daisymare
ReplyDeleteOh god please don't call Stephen King 'the master' it hurts my brain
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThat said, Mr. King is absolutely right. It is far, far more difficult to effectively edit your own writing than to edit the work of another. That's because when you read your own work, you come in with your own idea of how it's "supposed" to read, and that notion informs how you actually read the text. Because of this, you will tend to gloss over minor typos and, generally speaking, be unable to tell whether an 'almost-but-not-quite' scene is actually getting its point across. Having some else read your work (assuming they know what they are doing) eliminates this problem.
ReplyDelete@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteWell, not sure about your fic, but your comment is certainly well-written.
My suggestion: Just shut it down, get EQD out of the fanfic business completely. It's not worth it, not when we have sites like FIMfiction that are purpose-built for this job and handle it so much better.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you wanting your stories featured... Please ask yourself if it's worth playing guessing games with EQD's pre-readers, trying to decipher their vague criticisms, or being told they don't want your kind of story -- only to see another with the same traits approved two days later. I write for fun and don't need that kind of stress. Do you?
@Zobeid
ReplyDeleteYou know, I read that comment, and couldn't help but think of that scene from Ghostbusters where the pencil-neck shuts down the containment system.
Whatever point you thought you were making was lost in that glorious mental image of SUDDENLY, PONIES!!!
Like this!
I like this post. 150+ ratings, 4.7 stars, 200+ comments. I see one very loud voice opposed, a few in agreement, and the rest in support, minus a few who are intimidated.
ReplyDeleteTo those intimidated, I say this: go to Ponychan (or elsewhere, as /fic/ is unstable right now) first. It'll help. Writing is work, but if you're willing to put in that work, you'll achieve success. Not getting accepted by EQD can't stop you from writing, nor can it stop you from posting, only you can do that.
To the neighsayers, if quality isn't important to you, there are plenty of fanfic sites which have already been named numerous times, where you can go and browse stories to your heart's content. You can find everything eventually.
The fandom has come to view Equestria Daily as a spotlight for high-quality fan-produced material, be it fanfiction, music, or PMVs. The largest proportion of the readerbase wants there to be good stories so they don't have to wade through "anything goes" fanfic sites looking for the gems. In this way, to address an earlier comment, we sort of are a publication house.
As a closing, I'll say, rejection hurts, but if you're able to stop, listen and think about what feedback you get, you can push yourself to greater heights. Don't give up; nothing great was ever accomplished through giving up.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteTell him about the twinkie, Midnight.
@Alexstrazsa
ReplyDeleteSix words. My story was rejected with a six word response. That's what I call vague. I had to email back and beg for some kind of clarification.
So what you're saying is...despite making the job difficult for yourself and doing it for free, WE have to suffer to make YOUR lives easier?
ReplyDeleteI say go all or nothing if it's this much trouble for you guys. Obviously the majority of bronies who come here don't for the fan fic, as the "fanfic off" button can attest. So why enforce crazy, biased, standards for something no one cares about anyway? If it's that much trouble, just post a link to FiMFic and take all the ones here down.
SIMPLE!
To the people who are saying, "Well, I mean, I just write for fun...":
ReplyDeleteThat's great, but some of us don't. We have fun talking and thinking about literature, yes, but when you get right down to it, we really care about what we write. I do, at least. Good, interesting and unique writing, writing that sticks with you and gnaws at your brain, is not something you can produce by just typing away into a Word document. It takes a lot of work, a lot of thought, a lot of revision. It takes brainstorming and it takes planning. It takes cutting things out, things other authors would leave in.
Some people are okay with every other sentence crutching on an adverb. After all, if the story is 500,000 words long, no one is going to nitpick your story based on its phrasal construction. That's fine.
However, some of us very much care about good, hard sentence-level writing, even if the story is about colorful ponies having a picnic. To suggest that your average fanfic writer cannot take five minutes to google proper English dialog tags, cannot take twenty minutes to review his own work, cannot ask a single friend to proofread his story, comes as a slight insult to those who spend hours drafting, tightening and revising their work.
You may read some of these one-shot sad fics that everyone loves — you know, the ones that are about 10,000 words long, without much plot to speak of — and think that the author just sits down and writes the story, revises it once, and submits. I can pretty much guarantee that's not the case for 90% of the highly-rated stories on this site. They write so well because they take the time to think, consider, revise, consider again, revise again, over and over. It takes a lot of damn time and a lot of damn work. This is the kind of story that ought to be posted.
By not bothering to follow basic rules of grammar and syntax you're basically telling the pre-reader that you did not put any time into the story. That's not a good message to send. On top of all this, if you're someone who reads a lot, typos and poor sentence construction can literally tear you out of the story. It's an absolute kiss of death for your fanfic, no matter the plot.
Really, it takes less than an hour to thoroughly proofread a 10,000-word piece. Just grab a friend and do it.
I think the problem is that people just want to get "noticed." My Little Metro has over 100,000 words on it. That's the length of *two* average sized novels that I could've written but have not. And yet in spite of all that work it'll never, ever achieve the "legendary" status of, say, Fallout Equestria or something. But I write it because I love my story and because I know, somewhere, a bunch of people also read it and enjoy it. I "got in" because I put in that much work regardless of how popular I thought it might get, and lo and behold, some people did notice. EQD HAS to put up rules, or EQD becomes either a no-fic site at all, or we just spend hours and hours wading through the literally hundreds of fics that'll get thrown up without regard for quality. And let's face it: if you read enough fanfic, you know there is a lot of fanfic that just plain should not have been written.
ReplyDeleteThat's just how things work. Does every Youtube video get a million hits? Does every Facebook page get a million friend requests? Does every *other* blog out there get fifty bajillionasdfsskl hits like EQD, when the people work just as hard there? No, they do not. I've written several things that just didn't get noticed in my time, things I put a lot of effort into. And in the end I did manage to let those awesome (and they were awesome) ideas go and move on. But in the end I simply wrote them because at the time it was good fun. I wrote them and made sure they were the absolute best I could make them because I *love writing.* If you honestly love the act of *writing* before you love the idea you want to write *about*, then it will show in your work and someone, somewhere, will take notice.
Huh... it looks like blogger ate my comment. I guess I'll sum up then.
ReplyDeleteSorry about last night. Don't know how I got so far off track. I was sleep deprived and had had a stressful day spending a bunch of time hefting stuff around in the science lab.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't only be quality fics that make it on this site. Far from it. Half of what makes this site good in the first place is that it demands quality. I just want to make sure that everybody is getting their fair chance. It's not right for a fic to be rejected on the subjective preferences or biases of a prereader.
I also apologize for... apparently somewhere along the line assuming that all the prereaders are somehow biased. I don't know HOW the hell I came to that conclusion. Past me was being something of a dickhole.
Bottom line, as a message to the prereaders, just make sure you give everything a chance and it's good on me. It'd be a good idea if you threw in a three month or possibly more wait period if something fails three times rather than just rejecting the fic outright foreeeever, but as long as you're only rejecting fics for objective, quantifiable, legitimate writing issues rather than just subjective preferences and biases, then all's well.
@Rexco33
ReplyDeleteYes, they ARE making your life more difficult. And do you know why?
Because writing is work, that's why.
If you want people to read your work AND enjoy it (and I mean honest enjoyment, not "so bad it's good"), then you have to work at it. Keep reading and writing everyday, have people other than yourself proofread and edit before you submit, and always, ALWAYS be open to criticism.
Just cranking out a story in one afternoon, slapping it onto the web, and then emailing a link to EqD is not going to cut it.
I'm actually rather sick of people calling "BIAS!" when it comes to the prereaders. Are they human? Yes. Can they make mistakes? Yes. But immediately discounting any criticism simply because you cannot fathom why somebody didn't like your fic is NOT an appropriate response.
My fic got bounced the first time I submitted it. Some of the feedback was vague, but after taking a step back and honestly looking at what I had written, I saw what they were saying and fixed things accordingly. Second time through, I got on. I never called "BIAS!", I never whined that EqD was full of elitists, and I didn't throw away my pen forever because of one rejection. I just took a breath, went back to work, and finally got posted about a month after I had first tried to get on. It's very doable, if you will just take the time and initiative to do so.
TL;DR: You want to get anywhere in writing? You have to suffer for it.
SETH, YOUR PRE-READERS ARE GETTING BIASED AGAIN! GO YELL AT THEM FOR LETTING THEIR PERSONAL OPINIONS DECIDE WHAT GOES ON THE WEBSITE!
ReplyDelete@RedSquirrel456
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, length isn't everything. FO:E is almost as long as the entire Harry Potter series, and desperately needs an editor to take a machete to it and weed out 25-50% of the extraneous text.
I'm also curious as to where people got the idea that we rejected Rorschach in Equestria.
ReplyDeleteA few of the pre-readers know of it and enjoy it, but the author never submitted it to us.
@Crunch Nugget
ReplyDelete@mycutiemarkisagun
And ANYONE ELSE BITCHING ABOUT Rorschach in Equestria being "rejected"
It has not been submitted to us. In fact I see TWO comments in one of our discussion threads about liking it and telling Seth to let it through his pre-pre-reader screening. So calm your tits.
@Alexstrazsa
ReplyDelete"Don't you think she looks tired?"
@RedSquirrel456
ReplyDeleteI wish MLM had more exposure. ;_; It deserves to be known.
@pg13fresno
ReplyDeleteWell i find that generalization rather harsh. I DO put effort into my fics, I DO have pre-readers that actually pre-read, and I DO listen to any input I receive because I want to be better.
That being said, I WOULD listen to what these guys had to say fi they actually said anything. All I got was a vague rejection that made me believe everything was wrong, so I scrapped and tried again. That enough effort for you?
It's just, I'm not whining because I don't think they don't "recognize my genius" or some crap like that. Just that, I can't take their input to heart when I don't get any, now can I. And to sit there and basically say I fall in with the ones who DON'T care about quality, hurts a little, you know.
But I wouldn't expect someone already on here to understand.
@Maquabra
ReplyDeleteGenerally we read the beginning and spot check a few other places. We try skimming a lot to make sure there isn't a case of Hilterjack or suddenly 'quivering members' or Cupcakes. If we read, say 20k of 100k fic and that 20k was 'good enough' then we assume that the whole thing is. If there are persistent errors, we assume the entire piece has them. Not perfect, but it's what we can do.
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. It does depend on the pre-readers being unbiased and helpful, but there is a lot of shitty fanfiction out there.
ReplyDeleteWriters' lesson zero: humility.
ReplyDeleteWe're entertainers. Our work is a product. A free product, for which our only payment is compliments.
If our work doesn't receive compliments, it's our fault for failing to understand the audience -- not their fault for failing to appreciate our genius.
The value of our work is the joy it brings to readers, not the labor we pour into making it.
"I have failed to communicate my great idea" is a hard truth to swallow.
"My great idea... isn't actually a great idea. It's just a tired old cliche, and the blood, sweat and tears I poured into it were wasted" is even harder. I know, I've been there.
Thing is, we all need to learn that lesson. The pre-readers have no axe to grind -- they want to like your fic. They really do. When you get rejected, you need to contextualize the rejection properly. It's constructive criticism. It's help. Even the shortest, most harsh and rude rejection ever is just constructive criticism.
I think (though I don't know) that EQD's pre-readers are all professional enough that even if a fic's a total mess they're not going to say "This is bad and you should feel bad. Quit."
Sometimes readers aren't that nice. My first two star-ratings over at FimFiction were "hated its." No comments given, just drive-by hate that dropped my overall in the toilet for weeks.
I also had to learn humility when it became clear I'd written a niche piece. In one respect, Wild Sky Yonder has been very well recieved: its rating here is very high and almost every comment is positive. In another respect, it's very obscure. It's sitting at just under 3000 total views at FimFic. When I post a new chapter it gets about 3-500 views its first week. I figure I can double that for how many views it gets at google docs.
New stories about the mane six get thousands of views within hours of hitting the EQD front page. Something about my story is turning people off. That bothered me for a while. I've had to make peace with it.
There's also that ego-destroying moment when you're part of an update and the first 30 comments are "nothing I'm reading" and "zOMG YES! (something else) Updated! Finally!"
so, no: I don't have the readership that lots of other authors have. Sometimes I really wish I did. Sometimes a story gets posted and really catches fire, and I didn't think it was all that special. I have to choke down that envious feeling because I know it's wrong and stupid and beneath me. I guess if I wrote a story about Twilight I'd get a lot more eyeballs on my work. Thing is, I don't think I'm good enough to write Twi. Not yet, at least.
dear Seth;
ReplyDeletesince some people are complaining and "shitstorming" i have a propose:
set a time limit like " after the 3th strike you are not able to submit it again for 3 months".
having your fic rejected forever is scaring some writers...forever is like....forever!
@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteI'm going to frame this response and put it on my wall.
@Yours sincerely
ReplyDeleteThanks for the advice. I'll check them out.
This is why I don't read/write fanfiction.
ReplyDelete@Rick Neil
ReplyDeleteThat's the same way I feel.
@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteBeautifully said.
@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteApparently I don't do any of that...I just crap out a story and expect it to be on here in a week. Guess all my constant revision and pre-reading wasn't good enough for them, huh? Oh well, no skin off my ass
@Rexco33
ReplyDelete??
I don't recall accusing anyone of anything.
I get that there are a number of people unhappy with the feedback they get here. I know I'm probably asking for trouble here, but what the hell (BTW, this constitutes an open invitation):
I'll pre-read something for you if you want.
If you want an opinion on it, I offer mine. My email address is in my profile. Between work, school, family life, the in-laws visiting and my own feeling of obligation to finish my next chapter I can't guarantee I'll do it quickly, but I am volunteering.
If you send something to me, I'll be as hard on it as I am on my own stuff. And I'm hard on myself. If something didn't work for me, I'll try to tell you why. All I ask in return is that you believe me when I say I am not your enemy. Your success does not diminish me in any way. I want you to succeed and I believe from personal experience that the unvarnished truth - even when it's harsh - is the best way to help.
So go ahead. Hit me with your best shot. I'll try to let you know ahead of time when I think I'll get to it, so even if you do have to wait a while you'll know how long the wait is.
I'm more scared of the line, not so much having a fic rejected.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just a few bad apples, but from what I've gathered, the prereaders kinda suck at their job. They reject a lot of stories based on personal opinions/prejudice and decide what's good based on their own interpretations of what's cannon or correct characterizations.
ReplyDeleteIt's also blatantly obvious they skim most stories they're inclined to reject unless it immediately tickles their pickle.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete@Mysecsha
ReplyDelete"There's also that ego-destroying moment when you're part of an update and the first 30 comments are 'nothing I'm reading' and 'zOMG YES! (something else) Updated! Finally!'"
Yeah, that's the worst. Shit basically translates into: "YAY! I ONLY READ THE MOST POPULAR STORIES!"
Especially "nothing I'm reading". I mean what is the point of announcing this? And if you don't try new fics, how do you choose which ones you read in the first place?
(answer: they read Fallout: Equestria and Fallout Equestria Horizons Project Redux 2 The Expanded Chronicles of Wasteland Survival, a Stabledweller's Tale)
@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteSo basically... we're worthless.
We should revel in mediocrity and never try to improve ourselves for our own sake, because we don't matter. The only thing that matters is what other people think of us.
We should never do something for the mere enjoyment of doing it, because the only value it has is what OTHER people think of it. Any blood sweat and tears we pour into it are worthless unless OTHER people say they were worth something.
We should not try to convey any idea or meaning because the only thing that matters is the entertainment of OTHER people and catering to the lowest common denominator is an easier way to make people entertained.
...Yyyyyyyeeeeahhhh... I don't think anyone with a shred of self respect or self esteem is going to listen to your philosophy anytime soon, pal. Being a doormat doesn't appeal to most people.
Perhaps instead of taking what he said at face value you should consider that certain types of entertainment are more intellectually and emotionall fulfilling than 'catering to the lowest common denominator', that and striving to be an entertainer does not necessarily mean you idolize Michael Bay. But no, I'm sure it's better to just insult the guy.
ReplyDelete@Sumo Unicorn
ReplyDeleteI suspect you tried to get that completely backwards. Good work!
You're proud of what you do? Great. Fine. Congrats. The world doesn't give a shit. No one owes you validation.
If you enjoy writing for its own sake, that's fan-bucking-tastic. So do I. Don't bother submitting it if you don't care for readership.
As for wrapping the story around an aesop - when, exactly, did I say not to do that? I'm confused.
But hey, while we're on the subject: doesn't matter. If the story doesn't entertain, nobody sticks around for your amazing, mind-altering moral message.
And I said you write for an audience. The "lowest common denominator" is one audience. There are others. Even the most impenetrable, pretentious modern art is made for an audience. Art without an audience is a form of intellectual masturbation.
I have plenty of self respect. I respect myself because I conduct myself in a way that I consider to be morally acceptable and I make it a point to help other people whenever I can. The external results of the things I do, think, and say are what matters. I'm not going to pat myself on the back for the things I think and do all by my lonesome.
I'm no fic writer, so I would love this to be the same with art.
ReplyDeleteI understand tons of art comes in every day, and the best must be chosen. But I'd like a few reasons as to why a picture wasn't accepted so we can improve, because it hurts when you think you've made something the bronies will love and accept, spend 3 days on it, and you don't even get a response email saying "No."
I personally wouldn't mind to even be on this team of people who tell you why your picture wasn't accepted. Or even added to the queue.
@Mad Brochacho
ReplyDeleteTrue. Certain types of entertainment are fulfilling intellectually and emotionally. Star Trek was not merely a work of science fiction, but also of philosophy and introspection and idealism. Superman is not just a guy in funny long underwear that flies around, but a symbol of hope and a brighter future. Friendship is Magic is not just a cartoon about colorful horses, but a message about peace, friendship, and harmony.
But these deeper meanings, ideas, and emotions only come from the heart. They only come from the blood, sweat, and tears of an artist that truly believes in them. These ideas and feelings are only potent if they truly mean something to the person making them.
But it's also worth mentioning that a lot of people shun these ideas. Star Trek is shunned by many for being so nerdy and not action-packed enough. Superman is labeled as overpowered and unrelatable by tons of people, and subsequently ignored. Friendship is Magic... well look at all the haters.
Now here comes along this guy who says that entertainment is worthless unless OTHER people give a damn. No, your ideas mean nothing. The heart and soul you put in to convey your meaning and give your story life and try to get your message across means nothing. Your efforts mean nothing. The personal rewards you get from making it mean nothing. It only means something if everybody else likes your story.
No. I'm sorry. I don't buy that. I refuse to believe that Michael Bay's Transformers is more meaningful than Star Trek, simply because more people go to see a Transformers movie than bother to pick up a season of Next Generation at Best Buy.
The whole reason pieces of writing have meaning is because they can connect to people on some level. Those people who understand and interpret the piece, who "share in" the writing itself, are an audience.
ReplyDeleteIf you posit that you can write something that's "worthwhile" yet has no potential audience whatsoever... well, I'd like to see what you have in mind, because cannot think of any sort of written work, fiction or otherwise, that satisfies that criterion.
Think of it this way: if it doesn't matter whether anyone else understand what you write, why bother writing words? Why not use symbols / code that you will understand, and make it easier on yourself? It's because the purpose of language is to communicate. Communication requires an audience of some sort.
Yikes, typos galore.
ReplyDelete@Sumo Unicorn
ReplyDeleteOK let's try this again. I'm an economist at heart. I'm talking about value theory.
The labor theory of value is intellectually bankrupt. The labor that goes into making a thing has precious little to do with its value. Its value is in its marginal utility to those who consume it, because if nobody consumes it, it's the proverbial tree that falls in a forest - and it does not make a sound.
The heart and soul you pour into a creative work certainly matter to you, and if you find an appreciative audience it will matter to them, too.
If it doesn't have an audience, it never gets to that stage. If nobody likes Superman anymore, then the aspirational symbolism ceases to be relevant. He loses his ability to give people hope if nobody cares about him.
As for contrasting art with heart to cynical cash-grab entertainment: once again that's an audience thing. One can suppose there's something nobler about the audience that does appreciate compared to the audience that doesn't, but that 'nobility' is entirely subjective and unrelated to economic value.
It comes down to this: if you respect the EQD audience, then they deserve consideration when you're writing. If you don't respect the audience, don't bother submitting here.
@Mysecsha
ReplyDelete'I respect myself because I conduct myself in a way that I consider to be morally acceptable and I make it a point to help other people whenever I can.'
No, you see that? That right there.
You conduct yourself in a way that YOU consider to be morally acceptable. You conduct yourself in a way because it is worth something to YOU and YOU want to do it that way.
And in holding yourself high and holding yourself to a higher standard you share YOUR values with other people, and help them to improve their lives.
The source of worth is not in other people. It is in the self. If what you are doing means nothing to you, then it is worthless for everyone else as well.
But before it becomes worth something to someone else, it has to be worth something to you. Your blood, sweat, and tears have to be worth something to YOU.
"And in holding yourself high and holding yourself to a higher standard you share YOUR values with other people, and help them to improve their lives."
ReplyDeleteI always thought of writing more as sharing confusion than conferring wisdom. You go into a novel feeling pretty good about your station in life and come out feeling just as baffled as the schmuck who wrote it. It's a communal experience, really.
@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteI suppose the disconnect is you consider yourself an economist at heart and I consider myself a philosopher.
I search for worth and I don't give it such strictly defined terms. I look for the worth in everything, no matter how small.
I understand where you're coming from. If a philosopher had no students, his ideas, no matter how brilliant they may be, would never live on. They would die and nobody would ever know.
And yet, that said, they were worth something. If to nobody else than to him. And he's the one that really matters. If he died, knowing that he lived life better as a result of his ideas, it would still have worth... just nobody would know. Like a diamond buried underground that nobody will ever find.
Because he is the source. And if they meant nothing to him, then they will never mean anything to anyone else, even if he did spread his ideas.
I take offense whenever anyone says that something is worthless. Everything is worth something to somebody.
@Mad Brochacho
ReplyDeleteA Diary.
A written work that is worthwile... and yet is not meant for the eyes of anyone other than the writer.
An emotional outlet. A place to pour out the heart and soul. To record the sadness. To remember the happiness. To let loose the emotional torrent. To write silly things and doodle little pictures for the writer's own amusement. To look back and see how much you've grown over the years. To remember that day you did something stupid and laugh at yourself. To remember the day a friend got hit by a car, and reminisce about all the happy times you had with him before he sadly passed on.
Nobody will ever read it but you though.
Is a diary worthless?
There's a difference between holding personal ideas and writing them down, though. By writing them down you're writing them with the explicit intention to communicate(unless they are for your own personal use, in which case you could just use a notation system of some sort). No one is denying that ideas, concepts, thoughts have worth. What's in dispute is whether a piece of writing ought to be judged based — at least partially — on whether people can understand and relate to its message.
ReplyDeleteYou can write something with the best of intent, sure, but if it's a sloppy, bloated mess that no one can read, it's not a valuable piece of writing. Doesn't matter how brilliant the ideas are 'supposed' to be, 'cause they aren't communicated properly.
@Sumo Unicorn
ReplyDeleteWe disagree less than we initially thought. I suppose we could digress into some deep moral philosophy and have a disagreement there, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.
I used the word "worthless" to mean "of no value to anyone else," you took it to mean "of no value whatsoever" (which, in fairness, is the definition of the word). Those are, indeed, two different things.
I stick to the view that what I said is entirely defensible given the premise "I want to have readers."
A diary has an audience. You say it right here: "... To look back and see how much you've grown over the years. To remember that day you did something stupid and laugh at yourself..."
ReplyDeleteWhat good is a diary going to do you if it's written so poorly that you can hardly remember what the fuck you were talking about when you wrote it?
Diaries accomplish other things, but that's really the only relevant thing atm.
@Mysecsha
ReplyDeleteSo it would seem.
Ah, misinterpretations of intent... what hijinks you create.
@Mad Brochacho
ReplyDeleteThe audience is the writer. That's what the difference is. It's got no worth to OTHER people, but it has worth to YOU.
And even if it's written so poorly you can't even read it, the mere memory of writing in it and remembering the emotions of the time will have some sort of meaning.
I'd just like to make a small argument here regarding writing. I've seen people throw around the phrase "write for yourself" like a mantra, but I don't people truly grasp how difficult that is.
ReplyDeleteWe are, by nature, social creatures. Like it or not, one of our base desires is the approval and the respect of our peers. We write because we want our ideas to be recognised.
What writers don't seem to understand is that while writing may be easier to learn than other mediums like music or art, it's no less difficult to master. Anyone can be a writer, but only those with the creative capacity and the willingness to put in the effort can make something great.
If your story doesn't make it in three tries, the story itself may not be good enough, and it's often easier to scrap your work and go back to the drawing board. Artists and musicians often start over, why can't we?
If nothing else, try and make your story original, or at least worth reading. The inception of your story can easily be the most important part.
But that's jmo. Now I'm rambling. Keep writing, everypony
At that point we're not discussing the merits of the /writing/, though, we are purely discussing ideas. No one ever said ideas don't have worth. That's pretty obvious in itself.
ReplyDelete@MegaTank
ReplyDelete"We are, by nature, social creatures. Like it or not, one of our base desires is the approval and the respect of our peers. We write because we want our ideas to be recognised."
Yes to the first part, no to the second. Ideally you should write because you want to share your thoughts, not because you want recognition as a smart person who wrote a book thing and is, like, wicked smart.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteFair enough.
@Rexco33
ReplyDeleteThis is basically my point. The point is that after a fic has already gone through an editor and then been submitted and rejected, gone over again with numerous improvements that made the story stronger and genuinely, it then gets submitted again, and is promptly shot down again.
There are numerous problems here. If you send a story in and it gets rejected but the person gave a few tips for improvement and you then follow them, the next time you submit, it could be an entirely different pre-reader who has a whole new set of requirements for the story to pass.
Then, after adhering to them and changing the story, you send it in and get another pre-reader who then says that whatever changes you made that were meant to make the story good for one pre-reader, actually make it BAD for another.
The problem here I think is that EqD needs to just outright say that they only accept the best. Right now the mentality for people is that a story is only worth looking at if it comes from EqD, but that's the same as saying that the only movies worth watching are blockbuster hits.
If people look at the site saying that it only wants the best of the best then they will think twice about submitting a story and post it elsewhere. Fewer stories will get posted on EqD and people will inevitably start looking for stories on their own.
Consider this too. How often are animated works not even looked at by big time reviewers? Or how many times has a horror movie been the one to take home an Oscar? Only certain types of movies will ever be considered "the best" and the others won't be able to get any attention simply because they're rated R or because they're considered a children's film.
If EqD is going to be the pony equivalent of the Oscars then they need to make it clear and they need to apply this to all of their stuff, not just fanfiction because it's gotten too hard to keep up with. It used to be, we accept any stories, then it was, we only accept good stories, now it is, we only accept the best.
This should be applied to all the other areas of interest too. Music, art, and comics. Some art only ends up here because its a funny idea or interesting, not because its actually quality artwork, some comics aren't drawn as well as they could be, and some music isn't very good. If this is trully because EqD is only for the best then apply it to everything to prove that this isn't just because its become too hard for them to deal with fanfiction.
Let me also talk about something else.
ReplyDeleteI currently have two stories posted on Fimfiction.
My first fic, I wrote with earnestness, laughter, and zeal. I had fun writing it and loved the final product. I wrote it for fun because I wanted to just make a story that people could enjoy.
My second fic I've been writing more thoughtfully and carefully, attempting to adhere to the standards of EqD. It is a fic that was wrote to be much more emotional and "epic" than my other one.
The first fic has 15 favorites, 25 people tracking it, 22 thumbs up, 2151 views and 19 comments.
My second fic has 0 favorites, 5 people tracking it 4 thumbs up and 1 thumb down, 176 views, and 3 comments.
Both have been rejected by EqD. Now, the first one is not the most well written story yet it is my most popular one. The second one has been changed several times to adhere to EqD's regulations and yet it is barely even looked at.
I wrote my first story for the joy of it and when it got rejected I was crushed for a day but after that I found that I was okay with that because I was satisfied with how my story ended up.
My second story I endeavored to make it so it would be able to be posted on EqD and seen by the masses and it has grown stagnant due to my increasing depression over it not getting accepted despite numerous re-writes.
What is the real merit of a story then? Is it how it follows the standards? Is it how popular it is? Is it what genre it is? Tell me why it is that the fic that is inferior in its writing is the one that is more beloved by the masses? Why is it that me trying to improve my story for the standards of EqD has only made me less and less inclined to actually finish it?
Is it really worth all this effort to get on EqD if it only cuts short the potential for good stories?
@Alexstrazsa
ReplyDelete"We dont really take human ponies!"
Which left me scratching my head over how exactly my story got categorized as a "human ponies" story, which I'd sure never though of it as. Okay... At one point Twilight did describe using magic to disguise herself as a human. I guess that was enough to make the story unacceptable.
Then, only a couple of days later, The Library Club popped up on EQD. Go figure.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteYou make a good point sir.
Now you understand my frustration when I put a lot of work into my stories just to have it sent back while later on I see a story accepted with some sentence structure problems and a plot of dubious pacing. ^^;
ReplyDeleteWhat if there was a way to ensure that after revisions it got sent to the same pre-reader that read it the first time?
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeletePopularity is not quality. Twilight got published.
Shit is getting philosophical up in here.
ReplyDelete@Kits
ReplyDeleteUh, I actually specifically said that I was NOT talking about the Rorschach story. I knew nothing about its EqD status and didn't claim to.
And my first post wasn't meant to be a complaint either. I was genuinely wondering what writers should do when implementing the pre-reader feedback would pretty much require writing a brand new story. It's inevitable that not all deserving stories can be posted here, because there's just too many, hence my comment about accepting that their fic drowned in the sea of stories, and moving on.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteIf it matters, we give everything a chance. Even HiE, Sonic and grimdark which are often the worst of the worst - and look how popular FO:E is. It's not the best thing since sliced bread but it's a good story and obviously a fun alternate universe.
Biased? No, but we do have genre we do and don't like. We also, as has been repeatedly said, post stuff we personally don't like but don't otherwise find fault with.
Sometimes you'll cross a line in the sand - incest, gore, clop, violence - and then sorry, it's a no, but otherwise we're open to fics of all colours.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteWriting's weird like that. I've got 135k chapter views on fimfiction, and at last count I was in the top ten of current stories with something I didn't originally send to EqD, and I still don't think my stuff is all that good. Another fic that shall remain nameless because I really don't think it's any good has, alone, almost as many views as my works combined.
Sometimes good stuff gets ignored no matter what you do, sometimes mediocre stuff is put up on a pedestal it really doesn't deserve.
My advice - that I try to stick to myself - is write for yourself, edit for your audience and have fun doing it.
@Crunch Nugget
ReplyDeleteNot to be too harsh, but sometimes a story just... doesn't match up to what we want it to be. Whether you agree with it or not, that's our call. If you think you can do as well or better, and you have written stories that we liked enough to post (and it's not that hard) and were written apparently well enough for the fic-reading public to 5-star them, then talk to Sethisto.
Otherwise, if you can prove your editing prowess some other way, also contact Sethisto. If we need more (and there is an attrition rate, you don't know how grating it is to read yet another dash-broke-her-wings fic with ponies all talking in the same paragraph and sweetie belle is sweetiebell and Apple Bloom is Appleblossom) then you may get picked.
Honestly, since we get lambasted for being
* lazy, posting crap
* elitist, posting only what we like
* and just plain wrong, posting stuff that's not any good and
* having impossibly high standards nopony can reach
all at the same time, we're about right for a spotlight-site that doesn't focus on only fanfiction.
We're not all the same calibre of pre-reader, we try to have logical standards that match up, but it is difficult. That's the luck of the draw, really, and I don't know any way to fix that other than
* post everything
* post nothing
neither of which serve the community.
@Zobeid
ReplyDeleteSince I'm apparently doing a spot of wrangling here, I do remind you all that not all fanfics actually make their way to the pre-readers. The feedback that you get from the pre-readers is also filtered through Sethisto, and that does sometimes go a little astray.
In this case, that may be something that never got past the pre-pre-reading process, or it may actually have been a headscratch from the pre-readers in question, where they asked "is this... really pony?".
One thing not stated, because it's rather obvious, is that this is a pony blog - if you send something essentially not pony enough then that alone can be enough to reject it.
Humanized is one of those things - it's not enough to change names to Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie and Applejack, you also have ponify the world, and the adventure and the characters. Human ponies... often aren't very pony.
@pmcollectorboy
ReplyDeleteEssentially, there is - just ask for it when you send it back.
@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDeleteHm, I really wasn't trying to say I could do a better job. I probably wouldn't be a great pre-reader, because I'm not a writer myself. I edit for one story that was posted here, written by an author whose first language is not English, so I pretty much just do grammar corrections and such. I suppose in that regard, I do know what it's like to read mistakes that seem so fundamental that it's difficult to even address them, but for language matters rather than issues of general writing quality. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure I'd feel right about trying to evaluate a story for its broader merits.
Anyway, I actually pretty much agree with you. My first comment was referring to a story I'm merely a fan of, for which the author received feedback they didn't feel like they could act upon. So I suppose I was taking issue with the notion that every story that gets sent back can make a few little adjustments to be accepted upon resubmission. Sometimes a story is well-written already, but get passed over for aspects of its core premise or style. It's not 100% fair, because it's impossible for any system to be in matters like this. A good story can get rejected simply because that's just how it goes, and you guys can't post everything.
And, yeah, I imagine you guys have a pretty thankless job most of the time.
@somewhereelsewhere
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm a Pole.
I've just created an account on fimfiction.net. 3 chapters of my fic are being edited now. When the process is ready, I'll be seeking some help from experienced writers. I already have a friend that supports me with it but we are all busy adults :]
My story will most likely be bad, boring and way too gory for people to like, though I'm doing my best and try to keep it civilized. The plot simply requires some violence...
I have lots of fun writing it and my language skills are improving astonishingly, especially vocabulary, so I REGRET NOTHING! hehe
What’s good about the system? It promotes control and the beginnings of a quality filter in place. It (in theory) gives EqD a reputation of only hosting the ‘best’ stories. It’s needed because EqD is one of the most popular MLP:FiM Brony fansites out there. That’s a good thing.
ReplyDeleteWhat’s not good about the system? They only assign one prereader to each story, giving them absolute power over whether the story sinks or swims. Many prereaders, from personal experience and what I’ve heard, maintain a strong level of bias for certain types of stories. Stories are filtered into genre quotas, restricting them based on how many ‘similar’ stories have been submitted before. This corrupts the entire system and reason it was put into place. No longer are the ‘best’ stories being posted, but are instead the “prereaders’ favorites”.
If you don't have the staff size to handle the story influx, then either stop posting the stories entirely or get more prereaders. Of course it's not a paid position, but if someone is going to not do their job simply because they aren't getting paid to, then they shouldn't volunteer in the first place. To reject a story based off personal viewpoint is NOT acceptable for the largest fansite for the Brony culture. Grammar and story flow are important. Spelling and proper formatting are important. Rating is important too. But as long as all of those things conform, genre and contents shouldn’t matter. Viewpoint and style shouldn’t matter. To have a person who’s JOB, be it paid or volunteer, refuse to accept a story based off some genre quota, contents, viewpoint, or style is bias, not filtering.
So overall, if you promote quality control, then promote it. Don’t go halfway and only apply the quality control to your authors. Control your prereaders too, because even if you don’t pay them, they still represent your website. Bias makes you look really, really bad. There are many who think the submission process is a joke as is. That’s not good publicity, to be honest. I write this in hopes that it will improve the process for authors, readers, and prereaders alike. Hopefully someone is listening.
@Kiroberos
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you're tracking this, but if you do:
* more than one reader per story
Yes, we do this if we're not sure ourselves, want a second opinion or feel that a single viewpoint just doesn't cut it
* get more pre-readers
We do this every so often - right now there are spots, iirc. Contact Sethisto with some sort of "pick me because I am awesome" references
* rejecting based on personal viewpoints
We don't do this, other than
- clop, incest, trollfics, gorn, complete apathy at the story execution, sue/stu, certain charged issues (rape, religion, other 'adult themes' likely to cause more trouble than it's worth) and HiE or alicorns.
Having said that, we've had fics that contain certain amounts of all of the above - you just have to realise that as an author, the onus is on YOU to do much better than average when dealing with it.
* controlling pre-readers
Yeah, we do. Abrasive personalities need not apply, because we have to be able to work together. We differ, we disagree, but we do not sit in some ivory tower and mete out justice.
* disagreements with the submission process
In my experience, this is either down to
- my fic is special, why can't you see that
- I'm an English Major and you aren't allowed to tell me my style is bad
- writing is hard, you should be my editors
- or Seth's summation of our own internal, shared observations doesn't quite go as far in-depth as we'd like
- Seth didn't like it and it never even went to the pre-readers
When I have found something that I feel has been legitimately badly treated, and deserves special attention, I will go to bat for it - but it does have to be something special.
This only happened once so far, and the author subsequently wished I'd never posted it. d'oh hoho.