A recent series of questions popped up on Lauren Faust's Deviant Art page asking about Luna's banishment and subsequent 1000 years of imprisonment. Apparently there was a whole back-story behind it that was only slightly hinted at in the season one storybook intro. Check out the image above for the full response on it, or check out the actual comment page
here!
125 comments:
First :3
That makes things so much clearer for me. I had tons of questions surrounding that.
Good to hear.
It's pretty awesome that Lauren would take the time to explain things like this to us. Interesting backstory, too!
cool story brony
Lauren IS canon to me.
The level of detail that even she herself puts into something as simple as exposition is awesome.
I love this show.
Wow. That's pretty close to my idea on Luna's banishment. I'll take whatever Faust says as cannon until it's proven otherwise, like in an actual episode or something.
NOW SHUT UP WITH TYRANT CELESTIA BS!
Yeah that's essentially how I envisioned it... with the clause that if NMM is a "separate" person, that person was created BY Luna. No outside corruption.
...But Celestia is still a troll.
Which I'm fine with. Just sayin'.
In the Story "Ponies make War" is a really pretty explanation how the whole banished-to-the-moon-thingie worked.
but ofcourse thats just fanfiction :/
Still, what was it that transformed Luna into Nightmare Moon, Faust did say it was "an external force", but what was that external force, was it Discord? or is Discord a seperate entity from what turned Luna into NMM? So many unanswered questions remain...
Has she not realised that anything she says is instantly canon?
@Rulsis
Double 'n' canon xD
And yet she says we shouldn't take her word as canon. Oh we can be such silly ponies sometimes...
^ This?
Amen.
"Don't take it as canon..."
>everyone takes it as canon
As far as i'm concerned, what faust says is cannon, and all shows without her are just REALLY good fannon
A.MAZING.
Does Luna have some type of schizophrenia? :O
"Don't take this as canon."
Oh Mrs. Faust. You should know by now that anything you say will be canon.
Even so, the guy who said "NO MORE TYRANT CELESTIA" in caps rage earlier...that won't stop. 1. Because it's good fanfiction and 2. Because that doesn't mean that, in her sister's absence, Tia got a power trip and became megalomaniacal and all that stuff.
I never want to tell anyone that their art/story/etc is invalid in the mlp universe no matter how gridmark or silly it may be but I for one am glad to hear this.
I always liked celestia and never saw her as a troll. I think she's a wonderful mentor who truly cares and does everything she can to help the ponies grow, learn, and prosper.
"Luna was no longer present, jealousy buried her inside NMM."
Hoo boy. People are going to pounce on that quote as a suggestion that NMM was an identity separate from Luna. Possibly propping up a certain fanfic. :-)
I actually have a question about her "Don't take this as canon" statement: Wouldn't this be something in the series' bible?
"Don´t take this as canon" pfff. It´s Lauren Faust who´s talking, everything she says is canon, p-lease
There is one question I would really like to know.
How LONG did this NMM thing 1,000 years ago last? A few hours? Days? Did Celestia make a 'reluctant' split second decision or did she try her best to bring Luna back?
This is what Celestia wants you to believe.
I'm kind of glad about this not being canon. Because my headcanon is that NMM just never considered what would actually happen with Eternal Night. She just wanted it to happen.
I mean at least this clarifies that Faust's intent was for NMM to be on the Moon. Which makes sense. All this Luna on the moon is amazingly cute, but it makes no sense.
Maybe this will alleviate my being shown as a tyrant a bit, that would be nice.
Even if its not canon its always good to hear more.
Well, sure... once she started eating pony children who didn't pay her off in candy, she pretty much had to go. That's just common sense governing right there.
It's funny to me that people apparently take that "Tyrant Celestia" stuff seriously. I mean, the whole reason it's good for a chuckle is because she clearly isn't one. It's like depicting Gandhi as being a power-mad fighter eating everything in sight.
To me, the big question that remains unanswered is why Celestia could only banish NMM using the Elements of Harmony, and yet Twilight and the gang could revert her back to Luna using the same. It sounds like there was no worked out backstory directly addressing this, but there's room for plenty of possible explanations to be spun out.
Wait, Luna stayed NMM even while on the moon? Does that mean Luna frolicking with astronauts is non-canon!? Nooo!
Heh, yeah. It's Lauren's universe. If anything, the show is non-canon now.
If faust says we should not take it as canon, do we take that statement as canon?
philosoraptor.png
Sweet. 'Dresden Fillies' remains canon accurate (for anything explained anyway). Having a villain who truly wants darkness, is a much better story than teenage (for an immortal?) rebellion.
Tyrant Celestia is a fun trope though.
@Harwick
I always thought it was because the Elements were meant to be used by the sisters together. Alone Celestia couldn't use their true power.
My understanding/best guess is that the "Eternal Night" lasted at least most of a year (although possibly longer) because we know that date of Night Mare Moon's banishment (the day of the summer sun celebration - which could make sense as the day Celestia would be at her strongest in order to take on Night Mare Moon), and we potentially know the day that the Eternal Night began (Nightmare Night), sometime in the Fall. So, Night Mare Moon's night likely lasted at least from Fall of year X to Summer Year X + 1. You might argue that Nightmare Night does not commemorate Night Mare Moon's eternal night, but then why pick that night? Just a thought.
It's funny that this comes up as I'm writing a fic about it.
Anyway, when I'm finished I hope many people will read it since it delves deeply into the royal families lives.
Trollestia will always be Trollestia.
@Saurian
The logical assumption is that Celestia tried to find a way to free Luna of her Nightmare Moon corruption as long as NMM's actions weren't causing permanent damage; once it got close to that point (lack of sunlight threatening widespread famine, e.g.) giving up on her sister and banishing NMM became necessary. I'm sure those who take Tyrantlestia seriously, though, will gladly assume she "reluctantly" banished her sister after a split-second's thought. (Egophiliac's done an excellent comic pretty much on exactly this question, actually.)
@Harwick
There aren't many, but I have run across a few bronies who truly believe canon Celestia is a tyrant.
So, on one hand you could have a rivalry of equally honorable regal sisters who differ only in their experience and knowledge of their subjects' needs. Rivalry, during which younger one resorts to forbidden magic, succumbs to the darker emotions in her and thus pushes the elder to cast an ultimate imprisonment spell.
Youthful idealism coming into conflict with grown pragmatism and resulting in power struggle. A dramatic conflict where neither side is 100% right, and either way could have resulted in both a tragedy and a glorious future for ponies...
Or you could invent My Little Pony version of Parallax: generic mystical apocalyptical villain number #765489832, who only exists to create a two dimensional good vs. evil conflict without laying the blame on a potentially marketable good character...
I will probably get burned at the stake here for this, but everytime I read Lauren's comments about "I wanted A, but Hasbro politely declined and made us go with B", I can't help but totally agree with each and every one of Hasbro's decisions.
Sometimes people in big corporations actually know what they are doing, who knew?
@Delichon
//and either way could have resulted in EITHER a tragedy OR a glorious future for ponies...
SOrry, I can't write for apples.
Lauren is right. Stop asking silly questions everytime
She is literally a tyrant, in the sense of being an autocrat who doesn't owe her position to an external factor. She isn't elected by the population or by a part of it. We haven't seen any canon evidence of a serious abuse of that power however.
@psychicscubadiver
"Having a villain who truly wants darkness, is a much better story than teenage (for an immortal?) rebellion."
I disagree. Well, a "villain who wants darkness" CAN be better, but it's not inherently a better villain motivation.
The good villain motivations are ones that make sense. The terrible ones are "I'm pure evil just 'cause" or "I'm evil because something pure evil made me that way." If the source of the "evil" doesn't come from human emotion or logic, it's boring.*
*This ignores "Man vs Nature" conflicts where the bad stuff going on isn't "evil", just there due to luck or whatever. There are good stories with motivation-less villains but every single one treats the villain as a force of nature rather than a person. Example: The Dark Knight. The Joker was explicitly called a force of nature rather than a traditional character by the creators when asked what his "real" backstory is.
So yeah, I'll take "teenage angst" over "intrinsic evil for no reason" any day.
Delichon, I've gotta agree. Lauren is great for an idea person, but she definitely needs others around her for feedback. Otherwise she'll just turn into another George Lucas. While I do hope she'll be successful, I also hope she won't forget that no one person is able to figure everything out.
PS> Han shot first!
Neat.
There. Faust said it. Can we stop writing those fics about Celestia being evil now, please?
@Kaijiyuu
"Some ponies just want to watch Equestria burn." XD
@God
This makes her a dictator. However, it's worth mentioning that a competent, benevolent, takes-everybody-into-account dictatorship is probably about the best form of government we could ever have...
Tyrant implies evil.
@Delichon
...You even agree with the whole "Queens are evil, make her a princess" decision?
One day in the future I hope we get an episode showing the foundation of Equestria, Celestia and Luna teaming up to defeat Discord, and then Luna and her Transformation into Nightmare Moon...
Some day... Some day...
@Gamerlord
I agree with that call. Princesses are more approachable, and it's easier to picture her as a playful friend and mentor as a Princess. Plus co-regent Princesses are more plausible-sounding than co-regent Queens.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
And now that Luna is back, she and Celestia are essentially co-benevolent dictators.
However, the existence of Mayor Mare is evidence for democracy in Equestria, so it may be possible that there is a constitutional monarchy in place.
monarchy is not dictatorship.
dictator
[dik-tey-ter, dik-tey-ter] Example Sentences Origin
dic·ta·tor
[dik-tey-ter, dik-tey-ter] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
They would be a monarchy. And a monarchy isn't necessarily so bad. Kings can be "good" or "bad" depending on their alignment, disposition, and political policies.
Celestia can be my princess (queen) anyday.
It's been done
@Dusty the Royal Janitor actually, in Classic (or was it Ancient?) Greece, the Tyrants were the known governors of each city-state (not necessarily imposing and cruel), even before the democratic process was born there... under that definition (and taking the tendency of all the Greek references on FiM), Celestia IS a "tyrant"
Problem is that "even" if they could get it past legal that Luna "willingly" tapped into darker powers to challenge Celestia, and "neither" princess was entirely justified for what they did, they couldn't hit eight year olds over the head with that sort of lesser of two evils situation and then shove that under the rug for the rest of the show's run and make everypony happy pony. The show as it stands wasn't built to explore those sorts of moral conundrums, and appeal to the Hub's demographic. It would be great if there was a show that could throw some weight behind decisions without turning it into a pathos fest. *cough* Looking at you, Walking Dead */cough* But Luna being open to corruption by her jealousy and Celestia had to make the call to neutralize her the only way that she knew how is about all we're going to get in the case of tough decisions if the show plays out as is.
NMM: Now, after 1000 years of waiting, I'm going to shroud the land with eternal night, thus destroying all life on Equestria! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Twilight: And then what?
NMM: ...Excuse me?
Twilight: What's the point in destroying all life on Equestria? What do you gain from it?
NMM: ...I...don't understand the question.
Twilight: Look, you must have a reason for wanting to destroy all life on Equestria!
NMM: I DO have a reason!!!
Twilight: And that is?
NMM: ...Um...I'm not telling!
Twilight: You're the most disappointing My Little Pony villian since Pasina.
Digs around... ah, here it is, recently posted: http://egophiliac.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4e6diu. Seemed to tell it as well as anything, and seems consistent with FaustCanon to me. :) The main difference I see is in egophiliac's version, NMM seems more bound up in obsession rather than outright evil (an interpretation which suits me better anyway).
Good, because I was never a fan of NMM being a separate entity, too much, "The devil made me do it." There's other problems with NMM being separate, it cheapens Luna's character and as mentioned, Celestia is a cruel tyrant that needs overthrown then.
It also works with what Season 2 Luna turned out to be. Watch Luna Eclipsed again and keep in your head the whole time, "This Pony became NMM." Makes sense her personality is what it is when you think that way.
Also means another series of fanfics have been slain because of, "Canon!"
@Masterge77
She said " The spell jealousy had put on her" To me this indicated another entity perhaps called Jealousy that may be similar to Discord.
@marioandsonic Actually no, my very simple spin with this and what happened.
"Since you chose not to love your princess, I shall become that which you hate and fear.
You may hate us, fear us, revile us but you shall NOT ignore us!"
That's my answer to why Luna did it.
@psychicscubadiver
That was always my assumption as well... there are 6 Elements, and as strong as Celestia is, she couldn't utilize their full power by herself. In my opinion, she had the option of either destroying NMM (and thus Luna) or banishing her and hoping that, when she freed herself, the 6 Elements would be able to be used together in order to free Luna from the magic that made her NMM.
@Gamerlord
You know - actually I do.
Kids can understand surprisingly complicated concepts, but kids also like shiny stuff and fun-sounding names. You can have a deep and conflicted villain, but he better have a 100 feet shiny robot called Sir-stomp-a-lot as a sidekick.
Thus my tought that My Little Pony deserves villains who are more complicated than just "a bully" or "kicks puppies for fun", yet I am totally ok with "Princess" Celestia.
P.S. If you would want to go the whole way down the serious road, Celestia should have been called what she was and is - a Goddess. Canterlot palace should have been called Canterlot temple and she should have been adressing to her ponies not "subjects" but "my children", or "my worshipers".
But that would bite right into the collective backside of intellectuals, who would scream about shoving religion down the children's throats :)
(although what harm can be done to a modern child by a made-up pseudoreligion in the land of magical ponies - I have no idea)
P.S.S. Regarding good villains in MLP: As much as I enjoyed Fluterbitch in Season 2 episodes 1-2, I still felt that the whole idea of "corrupted Elements" was TOTALLY wasted - only Applejack gave some sort of backstory to her turning ("it felt so hard to tell the truth so I started telling lies"), but that's it. Think of the potential:
1) Loyalty, showing which is only easy when you are bound by only one
2) Kindness, which is only possible when you don't have to choose between two evils
3) Generosity, which eventually leads to others viewing you greatest sacrifices as fits of fancy
4) Laughter, which can really-really hurt, and wouldn't we all be safer from harm in the world without laughs?
I understand this could have taken half a season to explain on its own, but heay - you showed a AJ's part and than wasted the rest with a short montage. Sigh...
@Gamerlord
A Queen (or King) implies a singular authority. I just assume they're both princesses because they share power.
I know that's not the REAL reason, but it works in-universe.
I don't understand where some people are getting the idea that Luna turned evil for "no reason". That's not what the explanation above is saying. A crazed gunman doesn't hold his family hostage for no reason... and yet, at the same time, he's not involved in some struggle between equally-opposing moral philosophies. Some emotional conflict has pushed him to the point of ushering in a reign of evil upon his household.
It is by far the more likely and realistic occurrence of evil in the world. The romantic, comic-book idea that the villain is in the right from his own point of view often omits the fact that the most common human point of view mixed up in conflict is a simple "this person hurt me, and so I'm going to hurt them back tenfold."
As far as I see the whole "Nightmare Moon was Luna's jealousy and bitterness that became a form of it's own and overshadowed her and trapped her inside", thing I believe that:
A. This was kind of obvious at the end of the episode, and
B. This is pretty much anime logic, in a nutshell, and what I believe that Faust was going for in that episode.
It's pretty much a typical device used in a lot of shows, particularly metaphor-heavy series like Sailor Moon. For the most part I recognized it easily, as Nightmare Moon no longer being Luna, but Luna was freed by the magic of Twilight and co.
Also, I believe the reason why it took The Mane Six to be able to do this, is simply that there hasn't been a bond like theirs in all that time, that they are "special", i.e: "chosen ones" and all of that, while Celestia herself was only one Alicorn.
In a roundabout way, going to show that the strength of the Main Six's bond is stronger than even that of Celestia's own power, even though The Main Six will probably never figure that out, through their own modesty.
Just some thoughts of mine.
As for the semantics behind terms like "Tyrant", it all comes down to the purpose of language as a means of communicating ideas. If you use words that carry connotations with your audience that you do not intend, then you are doing a poor job of communicating. Regardless of its use 1000 years ago, the term today suggests a despotic rule over unhappy subjects. If that is not the idea that you're trying to convey, then a different term would suit you better.
Just because the devil 'made you do it' doesn't mean you didn't allow him. Luna wasn't Miss Sunshine when the nightmare came knocking. She was hurt by the ingratitude for all of her beautiful work and envious of the love everypony had for Celestia. The worst demons aren't those who make you do something, it's the ones that drown you in your own darkness and until you chose to hurt people.
Also, destruction of all life is a valid motivation if you are god-powerful sadist. The whole world is dead? Make more people and hurt them.
I hadn't realized this was a subject of debate in the community. I personally felt that the narration in the first episode was very clear about the situation.
As for why banishment rather than Celestia being able to just heal her, well Celesita is doing this all by herself, the elements of harmony are about friendship. She's alone fighting against the friend she had. The whole idea of the show is that friends together are stronger than one individual.
It is fun to see the discussion this show can sometimes inspire though :)
And as far as canon, I think everyone is going to interpret things the way they personally want to. And they may choose multiple interpretations for the fun of exploring different ideas. It's perfectly acceptable to write one fanfic where Celestia is an opressive tyrant and another where she is a lonely victim of undesired worship. It's part of the magic.
@psychicscubadiver
Okay, this needs to stop. Now that the views that I and the rest of the Solar Empire have been proven correct, you NLR fanatics are STILL trying to find -any- possible reason as to why it's Celestia's fault?
Do none of you possess sense? Reason? What PURPOSE would it serve to antagonize her only family? The only pony who could remain her friend and companion through the ages? The only one who wouldn't get close to her and die in the equivalent of an eye-blink?
How LONELY do you think she was for a thousand years? Not only the only ruler, but the only ALICORN on the planet. Alone as no one can ever say they have been. Any friends she made grew old and died before her eyes. When she's done holding court, what is left to her? She can't go out, she can't find anyone to talk to or vent with, no shoulder to cry on. No one who can even remotely understand her or her life or the hardships she's had to undergo.
No, you just want to look at Celestia and say, "I like dark things better, and now that we KNOW Luna went evil, it's still probably Celestia's fault." You bandwagon fruit loops drive me insane.
Everything in the opening points, conclusively, to Luna becoming evil for HER OWN REASONS, angsty jealous that Celestia -tried- to prevent but had no control over. NMM was then going to -kill everypony- with her zealous want of eternal night and her reign of evil. Celestia and Luna/Nightmare had their deific battle, and you can be sure Celestia was in danger of losing because she'd be the one holding back and an evil Nightmare would not be. Choices then are DIE and let your sister, trapped in her evil self, kill everypony else and suffer forever while she can't stop herself... possibly kill said evil sister to save everyone else, or lock her away until there's a chance that she can be freed and purified.
These are hard decisions. That had to be made on the spot. But no, Celestia just screwed with Luna until she snapped. Or no, Celestia hated Luna and is the one who turned her into NMM on purpose. That's all I hear out of you nut jobs and it's frankly sickening, you people need help.
If we're talking in the context of, "Oh, this'd make a great AU twist fanfiction." I honestly don't mind. My disgust is targeted at the zealots peppering the NLR ranks who -actually believe this crap-, I've personally thrown down with nearly FIFTY of you, so it's not just a small number.
tl;dr: Victory for the Solar Empire, let there be peace between the princesses.
@Celestia
I dont think of you as a tyrant...just a troll
@Delichon
A complicated villain with a 100 foot tall shiny robot called Sir-stomps-a-lot sounds like a character I would really enjoy. Sounds a lot like Discord actually: a villain that's a real threat yet has a sense of humor.
@Inkan1969
And people weren't doing that before? That's what I thought when NNM was defeated and out popped an apologetic Luna.
Silly Lauren, it's going to be cannon until the show says otherwise.
So even coming from the creator herself, it's STILL not canon?!
Owow.
@Harwick
The interpretation I have gleaned from what Lauren said is that whatever enchantment Luna was under as Nightmare Moon was too strong when Celestia used the Elements against her (might have also been partially because Luna had been co-wielder of the Elements as per Return of Harmony). The enchantment had to be weakened over 1000 years before the Elements could purify Luna of her darkness.
I liked your analogy to Gandhi by the way, made me think of "Gandhi 2" from Weird Al's movie UHF.
Finally some truth behind it. Lauren Faust may not lead MLP anymore, but as far as I see it - Her word is canon.
Why? Because she made the show, that's enough evidence right there until said otherwise by the current MLP team.
Faust's "canon" will always be priority for me, even if the new people do something else.
Anyone answers yet on what exactly made her leave?
@Kayriel
THANK YOU! I've never liked this whole war between the princesses thing, or the moronic hatred of Celestia. I still love Luna, but not because she's angsty/dark or any of that BS. Thank you for having some COMMON SENSE! :D
@Delichon
Totally agree. Lauren's ideas for the characters and the world were absolutely amazing, but some of the concessions Hasbro forced were the right calls, for me at least.
This is mostly based on the fact that I don't really enjoy adventure-type shows, but the good/evil thing does seem to lack a little complexity.
Although that said, the way Luna was portrayed in ep 4, haughty and regal but wanting to be liked, on her best behaviour but quick to anger, and sort of missing being Nightmare Moon, is great, great characterisation, and Lauren was probably involved in that.
@Kayriel
.... O_o
Um.. when did I say Celestia was a tyrant? Or imply that I supported the NLR? If anything I supported Celestia's decision by arguing that the Nightmare turned Luna's envy into destroy-the-world level evil.
@Arcticwlf
Double internets for you! I loved UHF. "He's Conan the Librarian!"
@psychicscubadiver
Hey...you're right, you didn't say any of that...
I think I'm gonna leave this post before somepony gets less then friendly XD
@psychicscubadiver
I think you're on to something there. Also, think about it this way: Faust said Nightmare Moon wanted to usher in an age of evil, in other words remake the world in her own image. What better way to make the ponies worship her? Once they're all as evil as she is, she'd probably get the love and admiration (as in, a twisted reflection of it) she wanted.*
Even after she was cleansed of her madness, Luna (during Nightmare Night) seemed to have a hard time understanding that love can't be forced, or demanded. but earned.
* There are several fics that delve into this; Dark Equestria comes to mind, depicting a twisted and, well, dark inversion of Equestria's usual society.
@ Nickel Gunner
Good point. I hadn't considered that outcome.
We all know Discord ruled Equestria before the two sisters, and we know that he was banished by them as they used the elements of harmony, petrifying him. However, (this is speculation at this point but I think it fits as accurately as it can) Luna has slight feelings of jealousy or similar toward Celestia even this early on, and Discord picked up on it easily. As his final act when he realised he was doomed, he planted a seed of doubt within Luna's mind. As the sisters matured through the years, Luna's growing jealousy and resentment to her sister and the other ponies were spurred along by the growing seed within her, unbeknownst to Celestia. Finally, one day, the seed sprouted, and whatever feelings Luna had at this stage were overtaken as she was completely corrupted under her own jealousy and resentment, fuelled by Discord's interference.
I tend to think that he was the ultimate cause of NMM (to me, it explains the 'outside force' that Faust mentioned previously), and if it weren't for him it probably would have never happened. Either way, Luna is now NMM and is bringing an evil and eternal reign of Night to Equestria. This 'disharmony' would be the key to his release and return, which I think he planned right before he was petrified. It sounds exactly like something Discord would do. The only setback was that he didn't realise that Celestia would be willing to actually use the elements on her own sister, banishing her. Much like his mistake with Twilight (getting all her friends back when he didn't think she could), he just didn't think of the possibility that Luna's own sister would attack her with the elements.
I also think that the reason why Celestia banished NMM, is because it's the only option she had. Two sisters sharing the elements were enough to only petrify Discord, and one sister would certainly not have enough power to cleanse Luna of her imprisonment within her own mind.
That's the jist of it, and it makes sense to me, seeing as Discord was a pretty under appreciated character for all the power he has.
^ Forgot to mention, obvious headcanon
Second paragraph, first sentence. Comma splice.
Okay, Lauren just commented on her dA answering to a question about Luna's corruption and if she knew what caused it. Her answer:
"I don't know. If for some completely unexpected reason there had been a request to do an episode about it (and how could there be, because it's way too heavy for the show) I would have called a writer's meeting. Together, we would have figured out if it was more interesting to have an outside force corrupt her, or to have her own magic corrupted from within by negative emotions. I like the latter better thematically, but maybe that's less fun. Who knows? It would take considerable exploration to decide."
You can check yourself, it's on the same comment page that was linked to in Sethisto's post.
@Nulono
Don't take that comma splice as canon.
So between this and NotACleverPony leaving, it seems like the NLR has just taken a pretty severe one-two punch.
Confirms what we already suspected. NMM spent 1,000 years on the moon, not Luna.
1,000 years of solitary confinement would make anypony ax-crazy.
Ugh, reading some of the comments on this... I'm not even going to get into the whole annoying debate over canon vs non-canon. Because it's just that: annoying. And I'm frankly sick of hearing about it constantly.
However, how Lauren views it is basically how I knew she did anyway. So I guess maybe I'm not as surprised as some. It's basically how I did too. Though with all the art people have drawn of it being Luna on the moon instead of NMM, I've just found to be more adorable. lol Obviously, she was actually in the moon and not on it. But Luna puttering around on the moon is too cute not to think about. :P I also can't see how anyone missed the "reluctantly" in the first season's pilot. I figured everyone knew that she didn't actually want to ban her sister, but was forced to by NMM. That the whole Trollestia and tyrant thing was simply for shits and giggles. I mean, as far as the shows actual story goes, it's not the case. But that should be pretty obvious anyway. All in all Celestia was in the right to banish Luna, well, actually NMM technically, to protect the ponies of Equestria. She didn't want to, but it had to be done since there was no helping Luna for the time being. It's really just the typical story of good vs evil and having to do something that you find very difficult to do for the good of everyone.
@Rohit Eligeti
Hey, she has it easy! Tolkien had people waking him with 3am phone calls just to ask whether The Balrog had fucking wings.
@Kayriel
I have to say, I don't understand people like you. If people hold different views it's fine to argue (or maybe debate is a better word?) about it, but it shouldn't be by attacking others and calling them "nutjobs that need help". Especially when you lash out at someone who is pretty much on the "same side" as you.
I'm not saying you or anyone else is wrong as I don't even fully know what that argument is really about, solar empire and lunar republic... As I already said, I just can't understand people like you. Maybe I just got trolled? I hope so...
It always bugged me to see art of "Sad Luna on Moon" when it was always clear to me that it was Nightmare Moon who was banished, not Luna. Glad to see I had the right of it.
So, nyah nyah.
Well, this ruins all the 'Sad Luna on the moon' fics. |D But I'm glad she's cleared it up.
@Masterge77
The external force could be some magical device like the elements of harmony that Luna willingly used in her quest for power and adoration. This device gave her enough power to challenge her sister but transformed her into NMM, taking what was left of her ponyity.
@Gamerlord, @psmylie, & others
At one time there were many independent states in northern Europe that were ruled by Princes. They were effectively Kings but didn't style themselves as such.
The reasons why they did this probably varied greatly, but these states were typically small, sometimes there were many of them sharing a common culture and people (think along the lines of the States of America but without the Federation). Sometimes they would choose a high king among themselves, or other times they would bend their knee to the King of a neighboring larger state in return for being left alone.
It makes me wonder just how large Equestria is. Perhaps there are other states, pony or otherwise. Or maybe the reason they don't take the title Queen is that it would seem to usurp their father who is presumably a near immortal like themselves but is engaged in greater things elsewhere, perhaps he goes for millennia without physical form.
That makes sense. I gotta admit, I always pictured it more like how I originally (way, way before the damned prequels) pictured Anakin Skywalker falling to the dark side - her jealousy and feelings of unappreciation got the better of her and, apparently, that's not a safe thing for an alicorn (or possibly any powerful magic user) to have happen in Equestria.
@mycutiemarkisagun
As you say "suspected", do you mean some people believed it was Luna in the moon instead of NMM? At least to me it was pretty clear that it was NMM all along...
@Octavia
I agree with you, Luna on the moon is adorable. Actually, on second thought, I agree with pretty much your whole post. I've always thought of Trollestia and tyrant Celestia in the same way I think of Molestia. Just for fun and entertainment, but in no way canon...
Well, that's good to know.
I would say that I hope this shuts up the Tyrant!Celestia fanatics, but I know better than to expect that much; even the Word Of Faust can only do so much.
Hopefully, this will shut some people up.
Anyone who's read Prattchet's Discworld series knows that not all tyrants are necessarily a bad thing.
Still, what I want to know is, was Luna/NMM conscious while on the moon, or was it like slipping in and then out of a coma.
In ep2 Luna says "I missed you so much" which suggests she was conscious. But I'd like confirmation.
@Arjay Creyo
It's highly doubtful it'll put a stop to the Celestia as a tyrant or troll gag. Because a lot of people, myself included, find them funny sometimes. Most people already know Celestia isn't really a tyrant in the story. At least I hope most people realize that. But it's still fun to poke at for giggles.
@Octavia
You'll notice I specifically said "tyrant Celestia FANATICS." Because there are some whack-jobs around who earnestly believe that "Poor widdle Woona was just a victim of a power-grabbing attempt by her EEEEEEEVUL sister."
As a joke or parody, I have no issue with it. It's the nutjobs who seriously believe it that earn my ire.
Yeah, that's about what I figured. In my mind, Nightmare Moon was just a manifestation of Luna's seething jealousy, amplified by her godlike magical powers. It was a consequence of having godlike powers and not enough maturity to match. I actually think that the relation between Nightmare Moon and Luna was sort of like the Pinkie/Pinkamena thing: they're the same pony, essentially, but their goals are dramatically different.
Lauren...you are awesome!
Why am I surprised that hardly anypony noticed this? I realized this the first time I watched it...
Guys, its much easier and logical to make the good guys good and bad guys bad, try and change it and we get pointless (yet fun) debates.
Oh well. *shrug
@Ceorlic
Hey folks! There is NO EXTERNAL FORCE. Reread the quote. There is no mention of "external force." Some brony read "evil magic," and instantly thought external force.
http://comments.deviantart.com/4/1603670/1919104364
Evil magic can mean anything. It could be Luna's own jealousy overtaking her. It could be a scary black cloud possessing her. Just remember that it DOES NOT say "external."
This is what I always figured. Luna was consumed by her anger, sadness and jealousy which took on the form of NMM and Celestia was placed in a difficult lose, lose, lose position. Let NMM win, destroy NMM and Luna with her at the same time, or Trap NMM in the Moon until such time that Luna could be freed of her evil. Did lots of people really miss the "the bitterness in the young ones heart had transformed her" and "reluctantly" lines from the prologue?
I never thought of Luna just sitting on the surface of the moon (no matter how cute that dancing GIF looks). It wasn't logical nor did it fit the imagery of the show: The image of the "Mare in the Moon", and the broken fragments of NMM surrounding Luna.
Although there are people who have difficulty separating fanon from canon, I think most people do realize that Trolestia is just a meme joke. "Wouldn't it be funny if Celestia was evil and corrupt since she is so nice."
And to those that say that this explanation is to "simple" and creates no depth to the character/villain of Luna/NMM, "just another evil for the sake of being evil villain". Remember two things:
1) This happen a lot in real life. "Someone hurt me so I'm going to hurt them back 10x as hard." Only in Luna's case, with the kind of power she wields, this was amplified to mythic level proportions.
2) Kids maybe smarter and able to handle more complex subject matter then most of society give them credit for, but deep philosophical and psychological debates on degrees of evil is still beyond the comprehension of FiM's intended audience of 3+ year olds.
If I may go on a slight tangent:
To the people that like to say that Faust leaving the show was actually a good thing because she would have become a "George Lucus" who wouldn't take input from no-one and eventually ruin the franchise, go read her follow up comment in the same comment page.
http://comments.deviantart.com/4/1603670/2282739345?offset=10#comments
Take particular note of the words "I would have called a writer's meeting. Together, we would have figured out..."
I know Faust leaving wasn't a bad thing but neither would I call it a good thing, and I just hate when people make that George Lucas comment towards her. It is unfounded and undeserved.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread already in progress.
Really? People are confused over it all still?
Lauren's explanation is basically how I interpreted it when I saw the first two episodes...
Still hate Celestia and think she over did it and ad least she could of kept the memory of her sister a live ( I mean when Luna was good) instead of just letting everyone forget about her and have a big look of what in their faces.
@SomeGuy
Still you must admit Celestia was at fault for not realizing her sister was feeling the way she was and trying to help her be appreciated by the other ponies. I mean at least send her to see a darn shrink.
I viewed it as Faust has explained ever since the first two episode; I never thought about the other possibilities.
but why the overanalyzing? Celestia was never a tyrant, she's a calm and kind ruler who would even play around with her subjects despite being busy; you really think she'll send her beloved sister to the moon for any more reason than to protect Equestria?
@Uni
In the Pilot in the opening it clearly said she tried to reason with her, she can't just give her what she wants, which is keep the night longer, because it will affect everything else.
but i already figured that much.... this doesnt help me at all D: not trying to sound rude though XD
@Uni
To the extent that the ponies of Equestria forgot about Luna, I'd say it's a result of the writers wanting to keep the Mare in the Moon an "old mare's tale" and not wanting to work out a way they'd still remember Luna despite that.
Still, even if you want to believe that Celestia allowed Luna to be forgotten through her neglect during the thousand-year exile, you actually believe that's reason enough to hate her, despite everything else that's been shown in the series? Do you similarly hate Luna for allowing her jealousy and resentment fester to the point she was willing to kill everyone to bring about her beloved eternal night?
(I know, I know, I'm just wasting my time...)
Finally!
No more debate over that cleared up. *sigh*
I'm calling it like I see it.
Celestia is hated because she is a big powerful female. Luna is/was loved because the fandom saw her as an cute and pretty doormat.
Think about that next time you wonder why Princess Celestia isn't Queen Celestia.
I love how Lauren is willing to interact with the community and answers questions time to time.
@2b03686e-fb9f-11e0-ade8-000bcdcb5194
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nightmare Moon, a pretty doormat? And I don't think the halloween episode portrays her as a pushover.
Furthermore, some people, myself included, tend to have a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to all-powerful semi-deities that reign as overlords. I don't know if you've heard of the anime Berserk, but I tend to think of Celestia the same way I thought of Griffith; a great guy but extremely ambitious.
But to claim what you just claimed is almost as silly as that feminist essay declaring the whole MLP:FiM series as sexist and racist.
I didn't learn anything new from this. It's wonderful what being observant and keeping a reasonable head-canon can do for you =p
@Harwick
Because Celestia was not able to use the Elements of Harmony fully/completely because well who was her friend and used the Elements of Harmony with her? Oh yes it was Luna, but her friendship with her sister was broken so understandably Celestia wouldn't be able to do what Twilight and friends did.
((I apologize it that came out to harsh, yes I was being a bit sarcastic though, but it was more of an “I don’t think you considered everything”.
@God
Actually, while it does not say so, I would find it likely that many years ago ponies did in a sense 'vote' for the sisters to rule over Equestria. Over the years ponies have had no reason to tell Celestia to step down since she is doing such a good job and as such willingly serve her will all their hearts. (Now this is again with both of the princesses))
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